PRI# 6 Transport issue IMPLEMENTED

[Stratego (dev)]

There no more transport that can tranport giants - that a problem in maps with large water areas, especialy for elves, dwarfs

[Stratego (dev)]

I thought giants can walk on water - they are no longer?

[Stratego (dev)]

makaw:

Transports:
In plans but to balance well we need to rework naval fights first.

again we can not answer future to any of these topics.
we need quick fix ideas if it is an issue

[Vladneral]

They no longer. Except almost orcs giants - they still can.

[Stratego (dev)]

i assume that is mistake all biggies should walk on water: @makazuwr32 what u think?

[makazuwr32]

To be more correct:
Orcish giants all can pass through water without problems alas at lower speed.
Humans have great transport for their giants (elephants are only current giants of humans).

Elven giants — ents, thorn elementals — can't pass through water and can't be transported in their only transport. Why i can't allow ent warriors to enter into transport is because units inside ent warrior can act as in tower even if ent is garrisoned somewhere that must not allow acting for units inside. With ent warrior inside this transport becomes 7 speed glass tower. Also because it has too high speed to allow transportation of giants.

Dwarves — they have similar to elves issue but only because they are lacking naval fleet. Will be updated.

Scalefolks — up to savra, but i think all giants here can pass water without help of ships.

Undeads — water is not an issue for them since all their giants are skeletons and flesh golem who can walk through water.

So actually this problem is related to 2 issues:
1. Giants can't pass through water at high speed as non-giant units for non-human races;
2. Elven giants can't pass though water at all without bridges.


Alas not all giants must be able to pass through water — elephants and mammoths as well as rhinos and other giant mounts must not be able to.
Ents need a researchable ability to move through water since giving them 50% default water walking will be rather powerful actually.

[Vladneral]

Humans great transport was able to carry giants but not anymore. We have no transport that can carry giants right now except "hardened transport" that can be captured in several maps.

[diesel]

i make transport chains to move units across entire map same turn AND atk - - wagon to tower, switch wagon and repeat. Same with ships/docks. If giants can ride along there is definitely no more balance. And can giants technically fit in most transports?

Opinion: no changes

[makazuwr32]

Well for water maps i'd say some transport with just slightly higher speed than giants have is fine.
Probably with speed 3-4.
Especially if this transport will be able to carry 1-2 giants only.

[diesel]

sorry, i suppose the thread was about water specifically

so a few ships ok, just no to land transport

[makazuwr32]

Indeed. We will not implement any land or air means of transportation for giants.
Unless that can carry only 1 giant and will cost as much as Defender War Mammoth — 14+ turns and mega only — for having 1 carry cap and stats of regular wagon along with guaranteed death of carried unit.

[Stratego (dev)]

Elven giants — ents, thorn elementals — can't pass through water and can't be transported in their only transport. Why i can't allow ent warriors to enter into transport is because units inside ent warrior can act as in tower even if ent is garrisoned somewhere that must not allow acting for units inside. With ent warrior inside this transport becomes 7 speed glass tower. Also because it has too high speed to allow transportation of giants.

this seems a bug in code, shall i fix it? so a unit can not shoot is any of the upper level unit (container) will not let you shoot.

Dwarves — they have similar to elves issue but only because they are lacking naval fleet. Will be updated.

so we can let giants go in dwarf transport too (if above bug is fixed) ?

[Stratego (dev)]

I checked in code and i see that bug is already fixed (i have faint memories about a few month earlier got fixed)
please confirm that an archer in an elf ent that is in an elf transport can NOT shoot currently.

as i think it can NOT, so we can let ents and dwarf giants being in transportships from now - please confirm.

----------
Also why thos big ents not able to walk on water? they probably similar size irl as other giants (they are in giants category btw)

[makazuwr32]

Elven giants — ents, thorn elementals — can't pass through water and can't be transported in their only transport. Why i can't allow ent warriors to enter into transport is because units inside ent warrior can act as in tower even if ent is garrisoned somewhere that must not allow acting for units inside. With ent warrior inside this transport becomes 7 speed glass tower. Also because it has too high speed to allow transportation of giants.

this seems a bug in code, shall i fix it? so a unit can not shoot is any of the upper level unit (container) will not let you shoot.

Dwarves — they have similar to elves issue but only because they are lacking naval fleet. Will be updated.

so we can let giants go in dwarf transport too (if above bug is fixed) ?

If this will be fixed than yes we may let for some units to carry giants (but still elves, dwarves, orcs will need new transport for that role).

as for why they can't walk - water is not good in big amounts for ents. I may allow to walk on water for them if they will receive constant damage each turn (about 30-40 damage) but i think it will not be accepted by community.

[Stratego (dev)]

If this will be fixed

wait i just wrote it seems already fixed months ago. please confirm.

but still elves, dwarves, orcs will need new transport for that role

ok, so until we have new transports we let use normal transport then (as instant solution)

water is not good in big amounts for ents

is it some DND constraint? ents do not like water?
actually i can imagine ents floaating on water - as chopped wood also floats on a water (having lower density than water)

[makazuwr32]

water is not good in big amounts for ents

actually i can imagine ents floaating on water - as chopped wood also floats on a water (having lower density than water)

We can't give for ents random movement that is not controlled by players when they are in water. If they are floating on surface.

water is not good in big amounts for ents

is it some DND constraint? ents do not like water?

Not DND but more like based on myths - in many lores wood spirits do not like rivers and even bigger water since they need land in order to keep their existence and water (especially moving one or deep one) withers their wood, the deeper the faster.

but still elves, dwarves, orcs will need new transport for that role

ok, so until we have new transports we let use normal transport then (as instant solution)

In case of orcs - they do not need that since their units can cross the water.
elves and dwarves - fine.

[Stratego (dev)]

We can't give for ents random movement that is not controlled by players when they are in water. If they are floating on surface

random? who said random? i dont undersstand. i ment "floating and "rowing" with their arms

Not DND but more like based on myths - in many lores wood spirits do not like rivers and even bigger water since they need land in order to keep their existence and water (especially moving one or deep one) withers their wood, the deeper the faster.

ok, i will check a few sites too as it would be very good for us if ents easily would travel over water like other giants, it feels right for some reason.

"In case of orcs - they do not need that since their units can cross the water.
elves and dwarves - fine."

sure, i ment the ones having no transport yet.

[makazuwr32]

We can't give for ents random movement that is not controlled by players when they are in water. If they are floating on surface

random? who said random? i dont undersstand. i ment "floating and "rowing" with their arms

I mean that they can't control their movement if they are floating. full speed but completely uncontrollable and similar to random movement of neutrals.

Not DND but more like based on myths - in many lores wood spirits do not like rivers and even bigger water since they need land in order to keep their existence and water (especially moving one or deep one) withers their wood, the deeper the faster.

ok, i will check a few sites too as it would be very good for us if ents easily would travel over water like other giants, it feels right for some reason.

For all plant based elven units i have in mind different way of crossing water - they will get help from naiad via her ability/aura that provides water walking.

[Stratego (dev)]

I mean that they can't control their movement if they are floating. full speed but completely uncontrollable and similar to random movement of neutrals.

i dont think we need to model that in this game.
simply waterwalking would be good - naturally if not agaisnt DND rules.

For all plant based elven units i have in mind different way of crossing water - they will get help from naiad via her ability/aura that provides water walking.

it feels a little "over"complication of the gameplay, and logistics. so would only use that as an "extra" speed or something.

[makazuwr32]

Not too much - since that will give them full speed in water for multiple turns.

[Stratego (dev)]

IMPLEMENTED
Elf and dwarf transport can tansport giants (ents and dwarf giants)