PRI#? Summoned Ent changes IMPLEMENTED

[Aral_Yaren]

A moment... is this summoning Ent which comes via Sorceress ability? No, the current summoning ent (with quick leaving 2 turn and 2 turn cooldown) is already balanced. Just make that summoning to NOT ENTER any tc is fine and SOLVE the matter.

By making it longer to stay (5 turn) while in the same time making recharge also longer (9 turn) - that means a Sorceress needs to wait 4 TURN after her summoning ent and Elf desperately needs tanker almost time before true Ent come after 7 turn. Elf doesn't even have that longing leaving ability NOR they have such anti-leaving tower like Ud to lengthen that summoning ent. Don't nerf Elf further - they're not Ork nor Dwarf!

[makazuwr32]

This is in plans already so we just partially implement it sooner.
And while for you it is balanced for me it is not.

Also why summoned ent must not be able to enter tc when normal ent who is bigger can enter?

[Aral_Yaren]

Then why not make all giants to not enter tc then? The same case could be said with Ettin, Hamletback, Troll Slugger, Ologhai, Defender giant-mounted, Berserker, all Dragon, Elephant, even Ent alike. That's still fine, considerably.

Even shielders (or any unit with high hp and armor) can tank to hold tc for awhile, which are suitable for their role as tank - moreover because I saw before Troll Shaman can spell that absurd armor to unit inside tc while disarmor cannot target them.

[makazuwr32]

That is wrong way to move. We already removed rams from tcs (here i agree) but removal from giants and summoned ents ability to enter tcs is not good.

Especially ents since they are trainable in tcs.

[DreJaDe]

Partially implementing it like this makes this not balanced at all, all to more when the full update that you'll talking about will happen months or years into the future.

At least make the cd 5-6 turns so that sorcerers can still summon only 1 at a time.

That's just too much.

@Stratego (dev)

Summoned ent should just not be for defending but for offensive. Elf are just defenders but a completely offensive race too. This would just limit their capability too much.

[Jerryqian39]

You can tell what is in the Tc by sound of hitting.giant can be countered by slinger easily especially after the slinger bonus change.Once you know a giant is inside you can deal with it easily.but you can not deal with ram that easy

[Stratego (dev)]

cd 5-6 would mean a much stronger ent than the cd2 one (as like a fire-and-forget missile, you cast it and you can go to safe heaven with your caster for many turns)

while it was 2 turn you need to stay in hot spot to summon the next ent.

so i think it is ok to make bigger cd than the vanishing when vanishing is longer

[DreJaDe]

cd 5-6 would mean a much stronger ent than the cd2 one (as like a fire-and-forget missile, you cast it and you can go to safe heaven with your caster for many turns)

while it was 2 turn you need to stay in hot spot to summon the next ent.

so i think it is ok to make bigger cd than the vanishing when vanishing is longer

It's much weaker.

The cd 2 means that I can spam them. When I defend using them, I can summon a lot of ent with delayed buff.

The CD 5-6,i can still do that but lesser. Lesser by 2-3 times. 6 turn cd is already a lot to counter a giant, let alone the ent.

The 9 CD means that I can only summon 1 in 9 turns and have 4 turns without it.

[Stratego (dev)]

4 turns without it

it can be less if you mean that - eg. 3 or 2?

[DreJaDe]

4 turns without it

it can be less if you mean that - eg. 3 or 2?

It means that there is a 4 turn window where I can't have an ent in that 9 turn cd of ent summon. Given that it's a 6 turn unit. It's made so much weaker.

The 2-3 times less mean that I can't spam the ent by 2-3 times as much when the cd of ent summon is 2.

[Stratego (dev)]

you forget it is also more powerful as you have for many turns a bighitter you dont need to stand there as a sorcerer to summon a new, also the 5 turn end have bigger walkrange (so bigger effective range).
it must have some disadvantage for it eg. having a bigger cooldown than its vanishing, and the cost is you have a window when you dont have ent for a few turns

[DreJaDe]

you forget it is also more powerful as you have for many turns a bighitter you dont need to stand there as a sorcerer to summon a new, also the 5 turn end have bigger walkrange (so bigger effective range).
it must have some disadvantage for it eg. having a bigger cooldown than its vanishing, and the cost is you have a window when you dont have ent for a few turns

There's no problem on it having bigger walk range.

Like I said, the purpose of ents are not just for defending but also for attacking. That's my argument for it needing to have lower cd than 9.

Why is it a problem that it can walk longer without the mage? Litterally many summons can do that and much better than sorceres. And much stronger than the sorceres one. I remember also that ent can't take tc.

The problem it poses in the first place was its capability to defend. The 2 turn means that it can defend really great because it's too spammable.

I did say 5-6 and the 6 is already over the 5 turn vanishing limit.

And no, it's not a big hitter. It has almost same attack lvl2 swordsman and a lvl1 orc warrior. And barely higher than lvl1. It doesn't even have power range.

[Stratego (dev)]

no problem on it having bigger walk range

i have not said it is problem, but that this also a big new advantage of the unit (2.5x bigger effective range)

so increasing the vanishing makes unit more usable, the bigger the vanishing the more the unit is like a non vanishing unit (so normal unit)
so that is a "buff", and that should have a cost.

but lets hear others ideas too.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok until it is decided i made back the ent to be 2vanish/2cd as the original problem was not even solved with the change of these
(that it can hold a TC for very long if attacked with wrong units - like the flyer in TC case)
remark: i held an orc horde once with 2 or 3 Woodshapers turning to ent form and back to normal form to heal or something - that was also unexpected by the enemy.

but i have new suggestion:
- what if all race would have a cheap spy like unit? - so you can see into TC - and what is inside, that would solve the problem not knowing whet is there
- or not a dedicate new spy unit but an existing unit that is some sort of fighter but also a lurker (can look into TCs) eg:
-- elf town watch and all its riding form (lol its name is like "watch" lol)
-- orc scout (all levels)
-- headless horsemen
-- human light cavalry (all levels)
-- boar scout (all levels)
...

(so basically all scout units that are currently only used on early game - this way they would be used later too)

so we dont need to close out any unit from TC-s we can even let rams inside or giants (but maybe giants are too big irl, so they do not fit into any town, so they still dont enter)

what do u think? am i a genious?

[Jerryqian39]

That is quit good ideas to let you see what is in the Tc ram in Tc is still a no no

[Stratego (dev)]

you mean this?
That is quite good ideas to let you see what is in the Tc, ram in Tc is still a no no
-----
ok for me.

[makazuwr32]

Alright.
I was wrong and that was pretty old variant of vanishing and cooldown for ent when it was still planned to be used on sorceress and before even upscale.
I am sorry.

Proper stats for it will be next:

Spriggan:
Vanishing 4, cooldown 3
Hp - 50
Attack - 21
Armor - 0/10
Speed - 3
Sight - 5
Spell resist - 0%

No bonuses.
Is affected by nature tech and ent toughness techs

Dendroid:
Vanishing 5, cooldown 4
Hp - 140
Attack - 21
Armor - 2/14
Speed - 2
Sight - 4
Spell resist - 0%

Standart infantry melee bonuses.
Is affected by nature tech and ent toughness techs.

Ent:
Vanishing 6, cooldown 5
Hp - 320
Attack - 36
Armor - 4/16
Speed - 2
Sight - 4
Spell resist - 0%

Has same as Ent Warrior bonuses.
Is affected by nature tech and ent toughness techs.

We need all 3 of them though to make them balanced well.

[makazuwr32]

but i have new suggestion:
- what if all race would have a cheap spy like unit? - so you can see into TC - and what is inside, that would solve the problem not knowing whet is there
- or not a dedicate new spy unit but an existing unit that is some sort of fighter but also a lurker (can look into TCs) eg:
-- elf town watch and all its riding form (lol its name is like "watch" lol)
-- orc scout (all levels)
-- headless horsemen
-- human light cavalry (all levels)
-- boar scout (all levels)
...

(so basically all scout units that are currently only used on early game - this way they would be used later too)

so we dont need to close out any unit from TC-s we can even let rams inside or giants (but maybe giants are too big irl, so they do not fit into any town, so they still dont enter)

what do u think? am i a genious?

I am not agree to keep rams since they have only proper counter in form of melee cavalry which is not good for keeping as tc unit.

Maybe not exactly for light cavalry but in general i like this idea to sneak peek for some units into tcs.

Will think more.

Scouts by the way will be usable in late game as well later due to charge ability — make a hole and charge into it to wreak chaos onto enemy shooters, throwers and casters.

[makazuwr32]

ok until it is decided i made back the ent to be 2vanish/2cd as the original problem was not even solved with the change of these
(that it can hold a TC for very long if attacked with wrong units - like the flyer in TC case)
remark: i held an orc horde once with 2 or 3 Woodshapers turning to ent form and back to normal form to heal or something - that was also unexpected by the enemy.

Woodshapers in this case are quite unique since when they "die" in armored form they revert back to their caster form.

As for summoned ents: they have several major weaknesses — burning, being giants, having weak attack — and because they are not that op as rams. Only problem is their spammability.

Rams have incredibly high piercing armor which when combined with their hp basically makes them impenetrable fortress for any ranged unit. Even for ballistas. Only convenient way to deal with them is either to burn them or with cavalry. And on top of that they also can hide inside melee units.

With higher cooldown in general they will become less op and that can be considered as fix.

[makazuwr32]

Update:
Thanks to @Anchar we found ready images (not perfect ones but will fit enough for a first time).

For spriggan —

For dendroid —

[Savra]

ok until it is decided i made back the ent to be 2vanish/2cd as the original problem was not even solved with the change of these
(that it can hold a TC for very long if attacked with wrong units - like the flyer in TC case)
remark: i held an orc horde once with 2 or 3 Woodshapers turning to ent form and back to normal form to heal or something - that was also unexpected by the enemy.

but i have new suggestion:
- what if all race would have a cheap spy like unit? - so you can see into TC - and what is inside, that would solve the problem not knowing whet is there
- or not a dedicate new spy unit but an existing unit that is some sort of fighter but also a lurker (can look into TCs) eg:
-- elf town watch and all its riding form (lol its name is like "watch" lol)
-- orc scout (all levels)
-- headless horsemen
-- human light cavalry (all levels)
-- boar scout (all levels)
...

(so basically all scout units that are currently only used on early game - this way they would be used later too)

so we dont need to close out any unit from TC-s we can even let rams inside or giants (but maybe giants are too big irl, so they do not fit into any town, so they still dont enter)

what do u think? am i a genious?

Well, we had some ideas close to this:

Goblin rogue or thief:
Looting will go to it only
Lurker
Invisibility ability
Ranged unit (no bonuses, just throws knives)

Elf gardener:
Invisibility ability
Lurker
Can summon various plants on battlefield

Scaledfolks, and dwarves are up for debates, but for orcs and elves these were relatively old ideas but would cost around the same as a assassin, but as special units (not recruitable in tc).

[Stratego (dev)]

ok but i like much better an existing unit - as i would not want to train a unit that is only for spying.
in the fight place i would love to have a fighter with that ability.

@Vladneral @Aral_Yaren @Jerryqian39 what u think?

[Savra]

Both of which aren't for strictly spying, as they both will have other uses as well, sorta like the assassin but without the instakill and sabatoge.

However goblin rogue might be able to steal techs albeit with research ofc.

[Stratego (dev)]

i know, but i would not train them in the middle of a fight, so it will be more "annoying" to train it than a scout.

[Vladneral]

I just use sound effects - when i want to know what kind of unit inside tc. Dont know about spying - that depends of what this unit can do also.
So as for now i personaly dont extremely need this unit. I think better concentrate on another things and leave this idea for a while and discuss it more properly a bit later.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok, so until it is discussed we can let the 2 vanish + 2 cooldown Ent to be in TC - right?

[Savra]

Nah, leave them out.

For cheap summons it's fine, but for powerful ones like ents, we'll leave them out.

[Stratego (dev)]

"leave them out."
what does it mean?

what i wrote ment: no change about summoned ents for now as there is no consensus atm.

[Stratego (dev)]

i am not sure how this is realted to ent topic but i plit this topic as ram-s are not discussed here anymore, only ents.

[Savra]

Hmm, well, we could do a quick update to elves spell caster's.

But not major one were I have to make 50+ spells, those take some time so:

Apprentice
Sorceress
Woodshaper
Druid
could get a slight update to they're spells.

I guess same goes for some undead casters as well.
And maybe orcs too so we don't have any of this copy paste crap.