Roman physician IMPLEMENTED

[DreJaDe]

Honestly, I was just thinking of this as something to fill the gap.

Many of the cultures have their own versions of healers and I think only three cultures are left without. The only thing though this lack I guess is a way to be really different like having buffs and such.

So yeah, this one is for the romans... Again.

Roman military doctors
Cost:3
Health:10
Atk:0
Armors:0/0
Turns: 1
Speed:4

Ability
Heal
+20 + healing bonus of target
+2-3 range

Factory
Roman Garrison
TC
Needs the Marian reforms to be availed in TC (it's the closest I could get to the actual ones)

Each legion has its own one. Before becoming one, they all became soldiers first, and even while being doctors already, they were still subjected to discipline. In battles, they also go directly close to the frontline to be able to tend more wounded soldiers quickly (The two reasons for 4 speed). Besides that, they are also said to be better than others in the art and science of medicine. Even said to be better than during the medieval times, with some of their techniques, being only rediscovered in the 19th-20th century. (Reason for high healing)

Honestly, I also wanted to add
apply bandages
+5 HP per turn
5 timeout turns
2 turn CD
Though this might make it already a 4 turn unit.

Since it's a field doctor and one who actually goes to the frontline himself. He can also be a unique unit that can speed buffed by the bard.

[DreJaDe]

Better idea
Remove the normal heal
Just the apply bandage (better names are needed)
Without the CD now.

[Endru1241]

I think I already saw someone proposing it.
Maybe it wasn't in any dedicated topic.

As for exact stats - strong single heal is good, but with such low hp any idea to use this unit close to the battle won't end good.
So it would end as unusually fast, but not really battlefield healer.
Idea for different category to be eligible for melee buffs won't matter soon enough, as bard buffs will be Nordic only.
Roman auras could boost it's armor, but with low hp it won't do too good.
I think it should have 3 speed, but rather 15 hp. Still with melee category to get roman and high morale armor boosts.

Apply bandage doesn't explain regen.
Anything with similar effect I'd just name heal over time.
Why limit ourselves with such naming, when regular heal is basically disinfecting, applying bandages, giving chemical or herbal medicaments to stop later infections or ordering people to do it, along with some part of possible influence to bring new people to the unit to replace the dead.
If we wanted to represent something like being under constant medical care, then I'd rather make healing aura.

[DreJaDe]

I think I already saw someone proposing it.
Maybe it wasn't in any dedicated topic.

As for exact stats - strong single heal is good, but with such low hp any idea to use this unit close to the battle won't end good.
So it would end as unusually fast, but not really battlefield healer.
Idea for different category to be eligible for melee buffs won't matter soon enough, as bard buffs will be Nordic only.
Roman auras could boost it's armor, but with low hp it won't do too good.
I think it should have 3 speed, but rather 15 hp. Still with melee category to get roman and high morale armor boosts.

The idea still is of course to use it only close enough to be safe. Not really from the frontline itself. Also, the HP are copied from other 3 turn healers, most with 15 are 5 turns already.

Apply bandage doesn't explain regen.
Anything with similar effect I'd just name heal over time.
Why limit ourselves with such naming, when regular heal is basically disinfecting, applying bandages, giving chemical or herbal medicaments to stop later infections or ordering people to do it, along with some part of possible influence to bring new people to the unit to replace the dead.
If we wanted to represent something like being under constant medical care, then I'd rather make healing aura.

It's really doesn't, but it's just some form of logic to an ability like how it's done in AOS and other games.

Also, when you hear priests and the likes, healing is more of an acceptable word that most wouldn't really question while for doctors and physicians. Healing kinda has some kind of disconnect with those names. (At least on my mind)

[DreJaDe]

Also, im okay with 3 spd but can he also be eligible to the aura of roman Aenator?

[Endru1241]

I think I already saw someone proposing it.
Maybe it wasn't in any dedicated topic.

As for exact stats - strong single heal is good, but with such low hp any idea to use this unit close to the battle won't end good.
So it would end as unusually fast, but not really battlefield healer.
Idea for different category to be eligible for melee buffs won't matter soon enough, as bard buffs will be Nordic only.
Roman auras could boost it's armor, but with low hp it won't do too good.
I think it should have 3 speed, but rather 15 hp. Still with melee category to get roman and high morale armor boosts.

The idea still is of course to use it only close enough to be safe. Not really from the frontline itself. Also, the HP are copied from other 3 turn healers, most with 15 are 5 turns already.

But those with 10/11 hp can also disable (onmyoji) or convert (missionary and priest) units.
Here we are talking about pure healer, so I think it's OK.

Apply bandage doesn't explain regen.
Anything with similar effect I'd just name heal over time.
Why limit ourselves with such naming, when regular heal is basically disinfecting, applying bandages, giving chemical or herbal medicaments to stop later infections or ordering people to do it, along with some part of possible influence to bring new people to the unit to replace the dead.
If we wanted to represent something like being under constant medical care, then I'd rather make healing aura.

It's really doesn't, but it's just some form of logic to an ability like how it's done in AOS and other games.

I don't care for other games, but I want to keep AoS to have names, wording vague enough, that it can be understood as something a unit does and some level of interpretation.
Apply bandage is so personal and exact, that it cannot be used like that.

Also, when you hear priests and the likes, healing is more of an acceptable word that most wouldn't really question while for doctors and physicians. Healing kinda has some kind of disconnect with those names. (At least on my mind)

Except there is no magic or divine power in AoS.
So heal is just a word from most universal game language, that can represent anything having the same final effect.
How heal ability on physican would be different from already on herbalist?
It's like we used "Damage" for some hp lowering effect.

Also, im okay with 3 spd but can he also be eligible to the aura of roman Aenator?

That's my idea.

[L4cus]

i think adding surgical i9nstruments and a roman healer called "physician" could be a good idea, being "surgical instruments" a tech to improve the heal rate of physician
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine_in_ancient_Rome

this is an idea of mine posted in the roman mega structure, and in a topic with some possible roman techs, i think i think surgical instruments could still be implemented if dre's idea is added

[L4cus]

1. the unit is pretty limited by cultural factory and a tech(limited by cultural factory)
2. is dedicated healing unit

so i think it could be 2 turns and have similar heal rate than healer(the deffault healing religious guy) maybe weaker, but definitly a cheap (2 turns) unit

actually this could not be limited to only roman...greeks had pgysician as well...and other cultures, this could actually be just a clasical era unit

[L4cus]

just searching in wikipedia i found valetudinaria, a field hospitals for roman armies, idk if could be added as tech maybe...like, "preparing field hospitañs, physicians are more prepared to heal allies while keeping themselves safe" so rising a bit their hp

[Endru1241]

To maximize potential tech effect and go somewhere in the middle between aura and single effect unit could have 2 actions with half the rate.

[L4cus]

nais, btw what is the meaning of "kurwa"? my sister who visited poland is saying that all the day...

[Endru1241]

nais, btw what is the meaning of "kurwa"? my sister who visited poland is saying that all the day...

Literally it's very demeaning word for prostitute.
But it's basically "fuck" equivalent.
Maybe even more vulglar.

Polish language has quite complicated grammatics and real usage of 90% of all swear words consist of some variation of "kurwa", "pierdolić" and "jebać".
Still at least 3 times more variety than english.

[L4cus]

i heard u have latin like declinations...not sure if declinations is the correct translation though

[L4cus]

anyway, sugested stats:
cost 2
hp 14
attack 0
range 1
armour 0/0
speed 3
sight 4
actions 2
heal rate 8
heal range 2 (physicians need close distance to heal units, i think thats the logic...)
CR 50%

name could be changed to: field physician or something like that...

[Endru1241]

i heard u have latin like declinations...not sure if declinations is the correct translation though

Yes, but there is also a ton of prefixes totally changing the meqning.

I also forgot to mention "kurwa" is literrally and meaningfully similar to russian "blyat".

anyway, sugested stats:
cost 2
hp 14
attack 0
range 1
armour 0/0
speed 3
sight 4
actions 2
heal rate 8
heal range 2 (physicians need close distance to heal units, i think thats the logic...)
CR 50%

name could be changed to: field physician or something like that...

For two actions it needs to be 3 turn.
2 turn is monk - compare it.

[L4cus]

maybe 6 heal rate...plus monk has more affecting techs and other abilities/spells like chants of dismiss propaganda...i think its balanced with 6 heal rate and maybe 12 hp...what do u think?

[L4cus]

[godOfKings]

Is this unit even necessary? Unless in the future cultures r completely separated

How will it b affected by or use roman buffs as advantage?

[Endru1241]

To have it more roman oriented heal aura would be good.
There is perfect explanation - First Aid - disciplined roman army follows physician orders and applies medical care to their unit members.

[b2198]

To have it more roman oriented heal aura would be good.
There is perfect explanation - First Aid - disciplined roman army follows physician orders and applies medical care to their unit members.

Oh, that could be a good idea indeed, since roman armies usually move close together

[L4cus]

nais, range 2? heal rate 4?
with 2 range the max number of units affected (i supose this doesnt heal garrisoned units) is 12, so 12 x 4 = 48...
looks op

[godOfKings]

I m not sure if its too op but how about a different approach,
tech: hire physicians
Every roman legionaries have dedicated physicians in the army

Effect: Roman legionary have 1 range heal spell, can heal both allies and self

Heal rate is debatable
Tech cost is debatable

Basically since legionaries cost tech to unlock, can already construct roads so y not also healing?

[godOfKings]

To make up for cheaper version of templar the tech cost can b bigger (plus legionary stat is already weaker than templar)

[Endru1241]

To make up for cheaper version of templar the tech cost can b bigger (plus legionary stat is already weaker than templar)

I kind of like the idea.
Even though that would decrease roman options.

[DreJaDe]

I don't think it needs to dismiss propaganda. That's more applicable to priests and leaders who have a kind of history of doing it. I don't think physicians do this besides not wanting to trust fake doctors.

Also, the logic on the two ranges can be applied to priests and other healers. So I think it can have at least 3 range.

I think legionary having heal would already be too much.
It can build, it has 4 turn stats, it has shield wall, and the likes only for 3 turns.

While techs... Can the tech suggestion also be in TC? I think, the techs plus the units.in roman garrison are already overcrowded. If you add the needed techs for them to work, they will need more than 10 turns to be competent, barely competent perhaps.

Just a side note
Can the legion missile tactics be 3-4 tech?
I think adding plus one range from an aura doesn't really balance its 5 turn cost. Even the +1 range of the blacksmith is more OP being able to affect so much range of units even from various cultures. While also not being limited by a 6 turn leader.

[b2198]

nais, range 2? heal rate 4?
with 2 range the max number of units affected (i supose this doesnt heal garrisoned units) is 12, so 12 x 4 = 48...
looks op

Doesn't look op for me actually, since:

1. You'd have to arrange the units in a rhombus shape for it to get maximum healing, and that weakens the effect of legion training considerably.
2. A 4 heal rate won't stop units that are low on hp from being killed in the next turn, reducing the total healing done, and no healing will stop units from being killed in a single turn, also reducing the total healing.

So something like:
cost 4
hp 17
attack 0
range 1
armor 0/0
speed 3
sight 4
actions 1
heal rate 12
heal range 3
aura: First Aid - heals all units in 2 range by 4 at the start of each turn (or maybe at the end of each turn, like buildings).

[Endru1241]

I don't think it needs to dismiss propaganda. That's more applicable to priests and leaders who have a kind of history of doing it. I don't think physicians do this besides not wanting to trust fake doctors.

Seems legit.

Also, the logic on the two ranges can be applied to priests and other healers. So I think it can have at least 3 range.

this is the question of how much priest heal is related to influence over people (possible maximum range at which they can order people to help recuperate some military unit possibly along with passing exact knowledge how to do so ) and how much to actual action of a unit (direct help of church employed medics or priests/acolytes).
So imho nothing really stands in the way flavour-wise.
It's only the point of balance.
But generally I think 3 range is good.

I think legionary having heal would already be too much.
It can build, it has 4 turn stats, it has shield wall, and the likes only for 3 turns.

That's why I like it - to make it that roman faction is all about legionaries.

While techs... Can the tech suggestion also be in TC? I think, the techs plus the units.in roman garrison are already overcrowded. If you add the needed techs for them to work, they will need more than 10 turns to be competent, barely competent perhaps.

Giving any very faction specific tech to tc would be bad.
Even if it would require said faction building.
I feel like making full faction play should need more buildings of it to truly make it right.
And e.g. rome can safely resign from building blacksmith, as it's of no relevance to them.
The point is to have capabilities to overcome differences in stats coming from it by different ways.

Just a side note
Can the legion missile tactics be 3-4 tech?
I think adding plus one range from an aura doesn't really balance its 5 turn cost. Even the +1 range of the blacksmith is more OP being able to affect so much range of units even from various cultures. While also not being limited by a 6 turn leader.

Missile tactics were added as something to at least allow some chances against blacksmith increased archers, so it's build time is more of a limit to the stage of game it could be available.
So if put behind some other tech could be cheaper.

nais, range 2? heal rate 4?
with 2 range the max number of units affected (i supose this doesnt heal garrisoned units) is 12, so 12 x 4 = 48...
looks op

Doesn't look op for me actually, since:

1. You'd have to arrange the units in a rhombus shape for it to get maximum healing, and that weakens the effect of legion training considerably.
2. A 4 heal rate won't stop units that are low on hp from being killed in the next turn, reducing the total healing done, and no healing will stop units from being killed in a single turn, also reducing the total healing.

So something like:
cost 4
hp 17
attack 0
range 1
armor 0/0
speed 3
sight 4
actions 1
heal rate 12
heal range 3
aura: First Aid - heals all units in 2 range by 4 at the start of each turn (or maybe at the end of each turn, like buildings).

If assuming aura wouldn't be removing poison and only affecting roman units, then I think it could be like that changing cost to 3, heal rate to 9 and hp to 14 or 15.
Btw. Changing order of effect applying would need engine change.
So we are stuck with all effect on the start of the turn.

nais, range 2? heal rate 4?
with 2 range the max number of units affected (i supose this doesnt heal garrisoned units) is 12, so 12 x 4 = 48...
looks op

Looking at it like that group heal would be similarly op.
116 potential max damage healed and healer doesn't even need to be on the center.

[DreJaDe]

this is the question of how much priest heal is related to influence over people (possible maximum range at which they can order people to help recuperate some military unit possibly along with passing exact knowledge how to do so ) and how much to actual action of a unit (direct help of church employed medics or priests/acolytes).
So imho nothing really stands in the way flavour-wise.
It's only the point of balance.
But generally I think 3 range is good.

This is kinda why I want the overtime heal with the doctor. If I did not misunderstand what I read, it seems that the roman doctors themselves pass their knowledge to the legionaries. Though I used only some logic in my earlier suggestion.

That's why I like it - to make it that roman faction is all about legionaries.

I guess that's true. Though even before, Romans are already reliant on Legionary. I mean, after getting the Marian reforms, you would only really use hastati if youre on emergency. There's almost no use to getting their archer and Velites also.

Velites are just weaker version of normal one while the archers can easily be exchanged for 2 turn balearic slinger which have 8 range.

So roman tactics only really revolved around supporting legionary even now.

And e.g. rome can safely resign from building blacksmith, as it's of no relevance to them.
The point is to have capabilities to overcome differences in stats coming from it by different ways.

I mean yeah but... In order to get a single legionary. You need at least 10+ turns (To be competent in game). Earlier if you want to lose. Its kinda hard to raise an army if i would still need to tech using the same building. While also other culture already have units that can easily counter legionary like Celts, Samurai, Mace and the likes even before the said 10 turns.

Missile tactics were added as something to at least allow some chances against blacksmith increased archers, so it's build time is more of a limit to the stage of game it could be available.
So if put behind some other tech could be cheaper.

I don't know if this can even be applicable to Marian reforms or any other roman techs....

Though that 5 turns is even worse in making Sagittarius enter the game than legionary. Though i guess I didn't use roman archer enough to have an opinion to this.

[DreJaDe]

There are other more simple version of his dress but I go for this one because it looked more good?

[b2198]

@Stratego (dev) This one should be marked as "IMPLEMENTED".