Conversion / Lower Resistance IMPLEMENTED

[kingofgalaxies]

Hey guys,
I open this thread to discuss with you the reptilian conversion ability, called mind control.
I like that reptilians have this as a unique feature. However, as there's practically no countermeasure against this powerful tactic, it should be properly balanced.

The basic conversion chance of 35% is fine imo. That's approx 1/3. Although, if you compare it to AoS, where converting has a probability of only 20%, this is already pretty strong.
But what's the general problem? Imo it's the 'lower resistance' effect that the targeted unit gets when conversion fails. It's just frankly too op:
It reduces the mental resistance by 25%, adding those to the basic chance for the next conversion attempt. It lasts for 4 turns! It is infinitely multipliable, so that eventually every unit gets converted (-25,-25,-25%... mental resistance). And, this effect can't even be removed from (human) vehicles, making it unfairly strong vs bigger expensive tanks!

A couple ideas on how Lower Resistance could be nerfed. One / a few of the following :
- nerf Lamia, stacking of which is part of why LR can be abused [has an own thread]
- half the duration of LR (2 turns)
- reduced value, e.g. -15% mental resistance
- a max number of LR stacking, e.g. 2x for a total of -50% mental resistance
- an ability to remove LR from human vehicles

Vote or comment on these please!

[Midonik]

Moved, this isn't a unit suggestion

[kingofgalaxies]

I think balancing is a very important part of this game, and as you see, there is still a lot of potential... Would be great

[Midonik]

@Stratego (dev) a subforum for balancing please
Tho I feel like others can suffice

[kingofgalaxies]

.

[Stratego (dev)]

@Stratego (dev) a subforum for balancing please
Tho I feel like others can suffice

done

[kingofgalaxies]

Great!
Now guys, let's start the discussion! xD

[Midonik]

The lower resistance mechanic you complain about is taken from AoS

[Midonik]

- an ability to remove LR from vehicles (highly recommended! Seems like this is just a bug)

Not a bug. Besides, that's only true for humans, both insectoid (scrapper) and reptilians (technicians) have a way to remove lower resistance. But humans have a way to remove it from infantry (that reptilians don't) and also a way to increase the mental resistance of their infantry, both of those with a very cheap unit (medics).

[Midonik]

"eventually every unit gets converted (-25,-25,-25% mental resistance"

You make it sound like lower resistance can guarantee conversion, that is false. The mental resistance doesn't get lower than 0%, I believe, so it can boost the chance of converting. So it can only result in a unit have 0% mental resistance (and that's a heavy spent), but then it still is only the basic chance of conversion (35%).

[Midonik]

Also in the future conversion won't be unique to reptilians, tho I don't think humans will get it.


That said I am willing to test this, it is powerful for sure.

[kingofgalaxies]

You make it sound like lower resistance can guarantee conversion, that is false. (...) So it can only result in a unit have 0% mental resistance (and that's a heavy spent), but then it still is only the basic chance of conversion (35%).

Are you sure??? I am in a mp game where this all happens, and my units constantly get negative percentages of LR, infinitely. I'd assume that these get added to the basic value of 35%. Also, otherwise wouldn't make sense that my opponent always converts on the 3rd or 4th attempt. But, you have the insight into data.

[kingofgalaxies]

Also in the future conversion won't be unique to reptilians, tho I don't think humans will get it.

Makes me happy
But doesn't really matter to this discussion.

[kingofgalaxies]

Not a bug. Besides, that's only true for humans, both insectoid (scrapper) and reptilians (technicians) have a way to remove lower resistance. But humans have a way to remove it from infantry (that reptilians don't) and also a way to increase the mental resistance of their infantry, both of those with a very cheap unit (medics).

Reps can also remove LR from infantry with... Said Lamia (cure)! Very balanced unit indeed....oo
Anyway, please note that converting rather cheap infantry doesn't matter as much as converting expensive tanks. It's a huge difference between getting a unit costing 2 turns, or one for 5-6 turns, considering the loss the opponent takes from this and the value you get. So, can't really compare. Humans have a significant disadvantage regarding protection vs conversion.
Still, main point imo remains nerfing Lower Resistance.

[godOfKings]

If we assume wen lamia is converting tank its basically converting the drivers inside, so y cant infantry mental resist increasing work on tanks too? btw aos has promote loyalty to increase mental resistance of all units, i guess aog can follow the path of brain augments to reduce chance of successful mind control or something

[Stratego (dev)]

Also in the future conversion won't be unique to reptilians, tho I don't think humans will get it.

Makes me happy
But doesn't really matter to this discussion. Humans should also get a balanced converting mechanism when it arrives.

not "should" at all. if a race is not a converting "kind" of race than that race will not be capable ever. Eg. as Midonik said: Humans are about never do mind controlling in scifi era, only aliens eg. psions and such do.

[kingofgalaxies]

If we assume wen lamia is converting tank its basically converting the drivers inside, so y cant infantry mental resist increasing work on tanks too? btw aos has promote loyalty to increase mental resistance of all units, i guess aog can follow the path of brain augments to reduce chance of successful mind control or something

Great idea! Or at least give human technician another ability to do this, similar to vaccine.

[kingofgalaxies]

You make it sound like lower resistance can guarantee conversion, that is false. (...) So it can only result in a unit have 0% mental resistance (and that's a heavy spent), but then it still is only the basic chance of conversion (35%).

Are you sure??? I am in a mp game where this all happens, and my units constantly get negative percentages of LR, infinitely. I'd assume that these get added to the basic value of 35%. Also, otherwise wouldn't make sense that my opponent always converts on the 3rd or 4th attempt. But, you have the insight into data.

@Midonik Pls investigate on this. It might change the logic of this whole topic.

[kingofgalaxies]

And new guys joining, pls read the top message first

[Midonik]

You make it sound like lower resistance can guarantee conversion, that is false. (...) So it can only result in a unit have 0% mental resistance (and that's a heavy spent), but then it still is only the basic chance of conversion (35%).

Are you sure??? I am in a mp game where this all happens, and my units constantly get negative percentages of LR, infinitely. I'd assume that these get added to the basic value of 35%. Also, otherwise wouldn't make sense that my opponent always converts on the 3rd or 4th attempt. But, you have the insight into data.

@Midonik Pls investigate on this. It might change the logic of this whole topic.

Games where we'll test it are already in progress.

[kingofgalaxies]

If we assume wen lamia is converting tank its basically converting the drivers inside, so y cant infantry mental resist increasing work on tanks too? btw aos has promote loyalty to increase mental resistance of all units, i guess aog can follow the path of brain augments to reduce chance of successful mind control or something

Great idea! Or at least give human technician another ability to do this, similar to vaccine.

@Midonik What do you think of this? Also how's the progress on Lower Resistance stacking?

[kingofgalaxies]

Hello?

[Midonik]

Don't rush me

[kingofgalaxies]

Is there any intelligence on stacking Lower resistance up to negative value of mental resistance?

Just want to share another observation :
Somehow, it tends to happen that once a conversion gets failed once or twice, all the next attempts are failed as well. Same thing btw with artilleries missing targets : if it misses once to a certain square next to the target, it would hit this exact square too on the second attempt. An algorithm glitch?
In the case of Lamias converting : Could it be that the negative MR value is only shown visually, but actually there never exists any? Then, clearly, Lamias could repeatedly fail conversions as its only max. 35% chance.

[Midonik]

@Stratego (dev) do you know or can check in the code if "negative" spell resistance make it more likely to cast the spell than the base chance value?

[Stratego (dev)]

"it tends to happen that once a conversion gets failed once or twice, all the next attempts are failed as well"

this is definitely not true, i use reptilians many times and i always make 1-2-3 or more attempts and finally i got success.

[kingofgalaxies]

"it tends to happen that once a conversion gets failed once or twice, all the next attempts are failed as well"

this is definitely not true, i use reptilians many times and i always make 1-2-3 or more attempts and finally i got success.

Ok, this was my brother's evidence, I didn't test it.
Still, the impact of negative mental resistance displayed in the unit state sheet needs to be investigated on.

[kingofgalaxies]

This topic isn't answered yet, is it?
Knowing whether the -x% of mental resistance truly impacts the chance of following conversions (adding to the basic conversion rate of 35%) would really help assessing the power of converting units such as Lamia. Is it just a visual stat or does it really increase the chance to convert?

[warlock]

What does 30% mental resistance mean? On attack, draw from U(0,1) and the attack succeeds if score above 0.3?

[Midonik]

30% mental resistance lowers the chance of abilities affected by it by 30 percent points. So if conversion has 35% chance of success, when casted on a unit with 30% mental resistance, it only has a 5% chance to succeed.