Unity map lists and how to select them - "MAP_LIST"

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Unity map lists and how to select them - "MAP_LIST"

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:36 pm

I wanted to start making it - but comes to me that maybe the campaign current lists and maplistings and launching not the best way.
or it is.

so question is: in Unity should be the same as now?
like under Campaings:
- campaign names (maybe ordered in difficulty order as now on android)
- under campaign button the list of maps (with map minimap, mapname)
- when u click on map you can set difficulty and launch it (and you see map descrition and other map setup properties)

is this good or should be some different?

i looked a few games and were poor in amount of campaigns, mostly have only one main campaign and no more, we have many many campaigns though.
but in these single campaign they mostly have a nice graphical "map" where you can see the milestones/points that represent the maps of the campaign.

should we "generate" such graphical thingie? (would need many graphics though - or not sure...)

so?

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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by Midonik » Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:34 pm

I don't think it would be possible for us to generate the background that would fit the many campaigns we have.

But we could perhaps have a more interesting map menu. Maybe the list of maps could take only one side of the screen, and the other side would have some art? Like, in AoS, it could be a table with a map and some plans on it? Surely we could find something free like that.
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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by godOfKings » Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:41 pm

It would b nice if i could make a background map with each campaign a thumbpin on top of the map, there will also b trails the player is taking to move from one campaign location to the next, infact it might even b possible to make branching storylines where decision in one campaign opens up 1 of 2 different story paths,

Aos would finally b like a fullfledged strategy rpg game with different stories, different possibilities, it would b really cool if something like this was possible,
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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by Endru1241 » Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:22 pm

Some campaign stories cannot be represented on a map e.g. two maps taking action in the same place.
Some wouldn't make sense - goin back to some location according to story.

Plus I think such approach is rather used for campaigns very carefully prepared with a team of supporting graphical designers, where such representation helps player to get in a mood and actually makes sense story-wise (or even story was actually prepared with map advance approach in mind from the very start).

Plus in this day map like representation showing a path of terrains to conquer is probably most widely used in tower defence games.
That is not a good thing to be looking like.
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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:00 am

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:36 pm
i looked a few games and were poor in amount of campaigns, mostly have only one main campaign and no more, we have many many campaigns though.
but in these single campaign they mostly have a nice graphical "map" where you can see the milestones/points that represent the maps of the campaign.

should we "generate" such graphical thingie? (would need many graphics though - or not sure...)

so?
This will be very interesting feature for campain makers as myself but only if we will be allowed to make such map by ourselves. Also it must be a feature, not a requirement.

Right now i am making for this role maps inside campain.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by Stratego (dev) » Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:29 am

Endru1241 wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:22 pm
Some campaign stories cannot be represented on a map e.g. two maps taking action in the same place.
Some wouldn't make sense - goin back to some location according to story.

you misunderstood, it is not necessary a "map" - imagine only a bunch of "points" on a whatever graphical image (it can be crasader image), points will represend the fights.
So the key is: not a list of maps in a scrollable listview but a graphical form of that.
Plus I think such approach is rather used for campaigns very carefully prepared with a team of supporting graphical designers, where such representation helps player to get in a mood and actually makes sense story-wise (or even story was actually prepared with map advance approach in mind from the very start).
yes and no, it can be a general single (or few) background(s) for all campaigns, my key point is to be a graphical appearance instead of a listview.
Plus in this day map like representation showing a path of terrains to conquer is probably most widely used in tower defence games.
That is not a good thing to be looking like.
maybe, however i just chekcd about 6 games and neither was tower defense game.

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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by Stratego (dev) » Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:32 am

Right now i am making for this role maps inside campain.
i dont understand this line

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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by godOfKings » Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:52 am

Probably a long time consuming method usimg triggers he somehow figured out
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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by godOfKings » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:12 am

So how i imagine it can b made,

Player can select an option called make new campaign, then 2 options graphical view or list view (if player dont want to make background map)

If select graphical, then a blank brown map canvas will appear with a few buttons on top, such as a brush, a button to place hills on map

Then button for trees and water bodies, if we drag it across map we can represent forests, mountain range, rivers and lakes, etc.

Also towns, villages, castles etc.

The campaign map will have a name, in order to upload a new skirmish map on the campaign, we can long click the skirmish map and a new option will appear: upload to campaign: *campaign map name* and there will b as many options as campaign map designs,

Selecting an option will immediately show the background map, where player can place a thumbpin for campaign map location, the first skirmish map uploaded will b automatically chosen as first map, and the next the second with may b a lock symbol etc.

One can also delete an uploaded skirmish map from the campaign, then the next map will take its place,

After that player can draw their own connecting broken paths from one location to another, but logical unlocking of location shall still follow the same rule as the list menu

Then player can send the whole campaign to the dev

Just my preliminary idea on how to implement this
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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by godOfKings » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:15 am

By the way @Endru1241 there r both tower defense and strategy games that use graphical map, even age of empires i think used a graphical map for the campaigns
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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:29 am

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:32 am
Right now i am making for this role maps inside campain.
i dont understand this line
In my campain i made a continent map and show from time to time advance via them. What towns are captured by whom, what are destroyed and so on.

Ofc it is not only that part — there also goes some story part as well in form of dialogs and in some cases fights or more advanced dialogs (with options to choose what to say).
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
When you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:33 am

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:29 am
Endru1241 wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:22 pm
Some campaign stories cannot be represented on a map e.g. two maps taking action in the same place.
Some wouldn't make sense - goin back to some location according to story.
you misunderstood, it is not necessary a "map" - imagine only a bunch of "points" on a whatever graphical image (it can be crasader image), points will represend the fights.
So the key is: not a list of maps in a scrollable listview but a graphical form of that.
This will be good if we by ourselves can make such graphical map image with campain points on it for campain (ofc if we want to).
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
When you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by Stratego (dev) » Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:16 am

makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:33 am
Stratego (dev) wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:29 am
Endru1241 wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:22 pm
Some campaign stories cannot be represented on a map e.g. two maps taking action in the same place.
Some wouldn't make sense - goin back to some location according to story.
you misunderstood, it is not necessary a "map" - imagine only a bunch of "points" on a whatever graphical image (it can be crasader image), points will represend the fights.
So the key is: not a list of maps in a scrollable listview but a graphical form of that.
This will be good if we by ourselves can make such graphical map image with campain points on it for campain (ofc if we want to).
sure.

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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by Stratego (dev) » Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:16 am

then 2 options graphical view or list view
this is not an option i dont really want to implement 2 type of views :)

If select graphical, then a blank brown map canvas will appear with a few buttons on top, such as a brush, a button to place hills on map
i am confused: are you talking about some kind of mapeditor feature? if so tis is off topic here.


...


ok i read tru and your post is totally a mapeditor feature.
this is not about mapeditor. this is about how players select ALREADY made campaign maps to play on.

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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by godOfKings » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:08 pm

Sure, we r just slowly building up the game from the bottom, may b initial implementation is a simple graphics image

But we should totally eventually go the way of great games like warcraft and age of empires, each player can build his own background story world for the campaign he is making

May b a much later implementation will b the in-game tools to make own background graphical map etc. but there is nothing wrong with collecting ideas b4 hand :)
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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by Stratego (dev) » Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:40 pm

ok but here this idea will be buried as was off topic.
please open a new topic for it - thanks!

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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by godOfKings » Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:38 pm

But it will still first depend on implementing a way to graphically represent campaign instead of list view.
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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by Stratego (dev) » Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:40 pm

i dont understand what u mean.

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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by Stratego (dev) » Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:13 pm

i just wanted to make it today but i see no result if you support or not support the graphical idea,
so please tell me - here is a few concept image to help.

so the main idea is
1) having one (or a few) general background where the "dots" of each map are generated,
   a) and you can select the next map-dot to go
   b) you can select any map-dot (if the maps are not locked into a sequence)
2) naturally if graphics available on this and that campaings, it can show a predefined background graphic and predefined locations.

here are examples of the case "1" the "generated" version:
Image
or
Image

but image a non-"map" like background like this:
Image

or this
Image

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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by Endru1241 » Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:02 am

Maybe I am the weird one here, but all of those graphics look exactly like from any tower defence or puzzle game.
There is hundreds of games like that.
And personally I get very bad feeling seeing anything similar in newly picked game.

Best TBS games (RTS too actually) always had lists, only with additional info frames - in most limited of them even without any or with one simple textbox with description and some image.

One of the most interesting I saw in one of xcoms (well its maybe a little more of an RPG/TBS mix, but campaign mission selection look could still fit) - it was a list and currently selected one was shown on world map.
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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by Endru1241 » Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:12 am

So imho something closer to this:
Image

Where design leader can set for each campaign (if not set then maybe some default for all campaigns could be loaded or none):
campaign background image (like this europe map)
campaign map dot image (the points that are supposed to be placed)
campaign selected map overlay (like this red cross)
campaign path (like the image for little dots between maps)
every map x, y parameters (maybe as percentage ?)
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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:20 am

Endru1241 wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:12 am
So imho something closer to this:
Image

Where design leader can set for each campaign (if not set then maybe some default for all campaigns could be loaded or none):
campaign background image (like this europe map)
campaign map dot image (the points that are supposed to be placed)
campaign selected map overlay (like this red cross)
campaign path (like the image for little dots between maps)
every map x, y parameters (maybe as percentage ?)
This is what i want to see.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
When you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:23 am

About "map" itself my idea:

Image

Something like this.
Map of area made by player.
All campain maps are shown via markers (flags on this map).
Green flag is perfectly completed map (3 stars);
Blue flag is completed map;
Yellow flag is in progress map;
Red flag is unlocked map;
White/gray flag is locked map.

Ofc we will need some markers to show route from map to map as well in this case.

On this map you can select these markers to see info about one or another campain map.
We also might add on this map some other selectable objects like tcs, castles, units and such and custom desctiption for them as well (for even more lore if campain creator wants to add that).
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
When you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by Stratego (dev) » Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:17 am

Endru1241 wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:12 am
So imho something closer to this:
Image

Where design leader can set for each campaign (if not set then maybe some default for all campaigns could be loaded or none):
campaign background image (like this europe map)
campaign map dot image (the points that are supposed to be placed)
campaign selected map overlay (like this red cross)
campaign path (like the image for little dots between maps)
every map x, y parameters (maybe as percentage ?)
i see! are those map1 map2 map3 buttons visible ever to user?

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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by Endru1241 » Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:23 am

I meant for them to be visible on default (maybe semi-transparent), but hiding whole panel with them with using right swipe to only leave small part of it (enough to execute swipe right to show it again).
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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by Stratego (dev) » Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:25 am

ok, but i tried to avoid implementing two appearances...

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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by Endru1241 » Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:48 am

I presented modernised interface based on best I have seen.
The best of both worlds.


The interface, where only "whatever image is used as representation of map" icons are able to be selected (so player has to find and tap on quite small button) is imho TOWER DEFENCE SUPREME clone #657 (just like all those few posts above).
And as a mobile game we don't have enough space on the screen to show better looking ones, like in AoE 2 (showing name under icon-button) and like I mentioned above - some campaigns doesn't follow the concept of placement.


If there are only 2 options:
- current one
- icon-buttons with no text
Then I'd just leave it like it always was - at least it's simple.

If there are still possibilities of variations, I am all for any of those, in order of how much I like them:
- some even better idea to have selection not entirely dependant on clicking correct icon
- the one I presented
- the one I presented, but with non-clickable map icons (so still just a list)
- list on one side and the rest of screen for campaign intro and/or image
- old style list with 20-30% transparency on buttons, and possibility to replace background by campaign definition
- list without touching anything
- list with simpler buttons and white as background
- list with map names acting like hyperlinks
- list of map names with keys and inputbox where you can copy map key to launch
- list of map keys and inputbox where you can write map key to launch
- list of map keys and inputbox where you can write command with map key as parameter to launch
- candy like graphic background generating icon-buttons, which become bigger when clicked and there is neat feature of whole screen shaking each time you get a star

Of course last 6 are part of a joke.

But honestly I think, that this:
Image
Is actually a degradation over this:
Image

In how easy it is navigate and how informative it is.
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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by Stratego (dev) » Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:17 am

i dont understand this "tower defense" stereotype :)
i see this aligment in other types of games not in tower defense (as i never download tower defense games)

--------------------------

btw: i very like the william wallace appearance as showing map list, however already earned stars shold be shown imho

-------------------------

acutally in your last image the information is different:

that is 2 view in one:
- that is basically a "only buttons" appearance for map list on the left.
- but in right side there is the "map details" data

while we have not yet talked abut map details so far.

so lets name the things as we can get confused:
- the part where you see all the map names and see which was completed with how many stars and what is next map to complete: call it "MAP LIST"
- where you see the map details like palyers, intro text, maybe a embedded immages in intro text and other map setups: "MAP DETAILS"

so

- MAP DETAILS i thougt to show by clicking on the selcted "point" / "flag" - like a popup window containing MAP DETAILS, where also appears a launch button to launch the map.
- and in this post i thought to discuss MAP LIST.

however i am open to suggestion to combine them but dont forget - i think you posted PC game images, that will NOT fit to a mobile game, there is no much space to show on mobile both (MAP LIST and MAP DETAILS) in one scene imho.

also hint: in a combined view the portrait should be diffferent alignment than in landscape that is double work to support both, while separate views (MAP LIST separare from MAP DEATILS is maybe good for both appearances with one - responsive though - design)

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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by Endru1241 » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:33 am

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:17 am
i dont understand this "tower defense" stereotype :)
i see this aligment in other types of games not in tower defense (as i never download tower defense games)
Quick google search and
Kingdom Rush (and any other "rush"):
Image
Last hope:
Image
Tower Defence Zone:
Image

But no matter what games genres use it the most - it's neither very intuitive, nor informative.
Only when very carefully prepared for specific campaigns it can provide with any advantage - otherwise it's just different for the sake of being different, sacrificing everything else.
It also looks too different from everything else in AoS (or any other variant).
btw: i very like the william wallace appearance as showing map list, however already earned stars shold be shown imho
And I actually don't like it very much - it's worse than interface from AoE1.
But I think those checked circles color was representing level of completion.
acutally in your last image the information is different:

that is 2 view in one:
- that is basically a "only buttons" appearance for map list on the left.
- but in right side there is the "map details" data

while we have not yet talked abut map details so far.

so lets name the things as we can get confused:
- the part where you see all the map names and see which was completed with how many stars and what is next map to complete: call it "MAP LIST"
- where you see the map details like palyers, intro text, maybe a embedded immages in intro text and other map setups: "MAP DETAILS"

so

- MAP DETAILS i thougt to show by clicking on the selcted "point" / "flag" - like a popup window containing MAP DETAILS, where also appears a launch button to launch the map.
- and in this post i thought to discuss MAP LIST.

however i am open to suggestion to combine them but dont forget - i think you posted PC game images, that will NOT fit to a mobile game, there is no much space to show on mobile both (MAP LIST and MAP DETAILS) in one scene imho.

also hint: in a combined view the portrait should be diffferent alignment than in landscape that is double work to support both, while separate views (MAP LIST separare from MAP DEATILS is maybe good for both appearances with one - responsive though - design)
I didn't try to confuse anyone
This is from AoE1.
And I mainly meant to show list and the map graphics (I am not sure, but I think red one was to be played and blue - already completed).
I don't want to put map details (my idea is few posts higher).
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Re: Unity map lists and how to select them - campaign maps

Post by Stratego (dev) » Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:46 pm

sorry for me being not clear: i did not mean you want confuse anyone, i ment just to name the "view"s so we all speak about the same view and same content.
It also looks too different from everything else in AoS (or any other variant).
what do u mean? it will be different, everything should be different that is ugly in current versions.
so yes, i hope the unity version will be totally different than current (i think ugly) AO* games (i mean the menu structures, camapign and map selection, launcher screens)

or u think current menu appearance is ok to keep? (i mean mostly plain buttons everywhere nothing fancy)

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