Mountain Defenders

[Savra]

Might as well get these done:

Defender Shielder:

Desc:
Trains: Defenders barracks, Kingdom under the Mountain
Cost:8
Hp:300
Atk:50
Rng:1
Sight:4
Spd:3
Arm:14
P.Arm:18
Res:60%
Bonuses:
100% throwers, Buildings
Abilities:

Defender phalanx:

Desc:
Trains: Defenders barracks, Kingdom under the Mountain
Cost:7
Hp:180
Atk:60
Rng:1
Sight:4
Spd:3
Arm:8
P.Arm:8
Res:60%
Bonuses:
200% cavalry
Abilities:

Defender Hammerer:

Desc:
Trains: Defenders barracks, Kingdom under the Mountain
Cost:7
Hp:180
Atk:80
Aoe:1
Rng:1
Sight:4
Spd:3
Arm:8
P.Arm:8
Res:60%
Bonuses:
100% throwers, siege machines
400% buildings
800% fortifications
Abilities:

Defender Crossbowmen:

Desc:
Trains: Defenders barracks, Kingdom under the Mountain
Cost:7
Hp:85
Atk:36
Rng:2-6
Sight:6
Spd:3
Arm:8
P.Arm:8
Res:60%
Bonuses:
50% flyers, melee/normal sized/foot units.
Abilities:

Defender Rifleman:

Desc:
Trains: Defenders barracks, Kingdom under the Mountain
Cost:8
Hp:116
Atk:44
Rng:2-7/2-8
Sight:7
Spd:3/0
Arm:8/14
P.Arm:8/18
Res:60%
Bonuses:
50% dragons
20% normal sized foot/melee units
Abilities:
Transform to shielded form:

Defender Mammoth Rider:

Desc:
Trains: Defenders barracks, Kingdom under the Mountain
Cost:10
Hp:600
Atk:80
Aoe:1
Rng:1
Sight:4
Spd:2
Arm:14
P.Arm:14
Res:60%
Bonuses:
50% foot units, mechanical siege
Abilities:
Mammoth charge: +2 speed, +8 attack, cool:5

Defender Mammoth Rifleman:

Desc:
Trains: Defenders barracks, Kingdom under the Mountain
Cost:9
Hp:400
Atk:44
Rng:2-6
Sight:6
Spd:2
Arm:10
P.Arm:10
Res:60%
Bonuses:
50% dragons
20% normal sized foot/melee units
Abilities:

Defender Wooly Rhino Lancer:

Desc:
Trains: Defenders barracks, Kingdom under the Mountain
Cost:9
Hp:540
Atk:60
Rng:1
Sight:4
Spd:2
Arm:12
P.Arm:12
Res:60%
Bonuses:
100% cavalry, giant cavalry
50% flying/aquatic cavalry
200% buildings
400% fortifications
Abilities:

Defender Sabrecore Rider:

Desc:
Trains: Defenders barracks, Kingdom under the Mountain
Cost:12
Hp:320
Atk:70
Aoe:1
Rng:1
Sight:4
Spd:3 flying
Arm:10
P.Arm:10
Res:60%
Bonuses:
50% foot units, mechanical siege
100% dragons, giants
Abilities:

Defender Sabrecore Lancer:

Desc:
Trains: Defenders barracks, Kingdom under the Mountain
Cost:11
Hp:288
Atk:60
Rng:1
Sight:4
Spd:3
Arm:10
P.Arm:10
Res:60%
Bonuses:
100% flying cavalry, giant cavalry
50% aquatic, land cavalry
Abilities:

Defender Captain:

Desc:
Trains: Defenders barracks, Kingdom under the Mountain
Cost:10
Hp:280
Atk:64
Rng:1
Sight:4
Spd:3
Arm:12
P.Arm:12
Res:60%
Bonuses:
100% throwers, Buildings
Abilities:

Just a general look, of course stats and the such will need to be changed.

Abilities also will need to be discussed.

[Anchar]

It seems to me that their cost is too high. As far as I know, such sub-factions as human imperials, elven glades, undead armor, uruk hai orcs can usually only be seen in battles on 50 by 50, 1 against 1 maps, on 30 by 30 maps such fighters look like mini bosses. Considering that dwarfs lose in terms of mobility in capturing territories, they usually have less production and a smaller army, so I'm afraid that the production of such fighters will not be popular, they will be produced only in conditions of an obvious preponderance of forces over the enemy.

[Savra]

It's still a work in progress, but one thing I should mention, is they will be getting mines to build on mountains, that would work similar to the mines in AOS.

But as I said, it's still a work in progress.

[makazuwr32]

For now mines are a bit on hold though because ability for them is not in the game yet for now (requires coding from stratego).

Idea of mines alex had is next:
Counts as factory, no production inside though
Speeds up production passively (!!!) of buildings in all 4 nearby tiles by 1.2-1.5 times (so it is as if you'll get 4 free couriers once per 2 turns for those 4 factories for 1.5 times speed up).

What is required by stratego is allowing of fractional numbers of turns (0 is still 0 and unit/tech is finished) and ability to speed up production passively, as aura.

[Savra]

I think I prefer something different and more simple.

The original idea seemed fine for me as we already are requiring of stratego to make a lot of codes and this isn't necessarily with that effort for now.

I would prefer the structure be buildable on mountains only by miners, count as building but not towards factory count, has vanishing 6, on vanishing 0 it turns into an abandoned mine that can be passed through but not destroyed, be able to summon random carts of material:
Ore cart +1 Production speed (70%), gold cart +2 production speed(25%), gem cart +3 production speed(5%)

This would make up for their cost issues.

Also we could allow for them to be enchantable with rune smiths with the rune of abundance (8 cost, 5 cool/delay) which would add permanent delay vanishing to the structure.

[Anchar]

Idea of mines alex had is next:
Counts as factory, no production inside though
Speeds up production passively (!!!) of buildings in all 4 nearby tiles by 1.2-1.5 times (so it is as if you'll get 4 free couriers once per 2 turns for those 4 factories for 1.5 times speed up).

Will it be built in the mountains? If so, it will not be convenient.

I thought they would be like the graves of the undead or like elven caves with wolves only with the call of miners.

[Savra]

I was thinking just going with AOS style and letting dwarven miners act as both a cheaper worker and the only one able to build mines. However the mines might require research at base.

[makazuwr32]

Another idea that was accepted by alex is next:
3 trainable carts:
2 turns cost that reduces by 2 cost when used
4 turns that reduces cost by 5
6 turns that reduces cost by 8

Still counts as factory.

Alex and i both did not like idea of auxillary-based production with random output thus i disagree with such idea. It is non-reliable.

[Savra]

Then we might go with that then, but only the miner can build it, on only mountains.

[makazuwr32]

Do not agree with "on only mountains" alas.
Many maps have no mountains at all. What should dwarves do on those?

Instead i suggest 2 variants of this building:
Very-very-very costly on normal terrain and cheaper one on mountains. Like monster cave of orcs has 2 variants.

Also do not like "only miner" option. That 2 turn cost money courier unit who can be too easy killed by almost any ranged unit? Unless you make new unit specifically for that i disagree with this.

[Savra]

The miner I was thinking of making into a laborer for dwarves, since workers will eventually get upgrades it should be fine. They will be the only ones to be able to build out of all the races, but they only can make mines.

For production speed up, this might be the better solution as dwarven mines would be better production speed ups then other races.

Plus the mines can be researched first.

We could probably make the cheap mines only produce the first cart, while more costly mines will produce all 3.

Both mines would require research.

Btw, for humans and dwarves I would like them to have a combo of both ambidextry upgrades and unit class upgrades. That way it stays in tune with the rest of their upgrade style.

[makazuwr32]

I see. Maybe you are right about this idea.

Not sure about researching - i think it could be similar to wisp researches of elves maybe? But in mineshaft building.

About human and dwarven workers and way they upgrade:
It is fine for me as long as they follow the values i and alex planned for them long ago.

[Savra]

I should probably give an example of what they will look like under max upgrade:

(Key:
AU: Armour Upgrades
SU: Shield Upgrades)

Defender Shielder:
Trains: Defenders hall, Kingdom under the Mountain
Cost:8
Hp:300
Atk:50/52/54/56/58
Rng:1
Sight:4
Spd:3
R.Dge:SU:0/0/5%/10%
M.Dge:SU:0/0/5%/10%
Arm:14 AU:16/18/20/22 SU:24/26
P.Arm:18 AU:20/22/24/26 SU:28/30
Res:60%
Bonuses:
100% throwers, buildings
200% fortifications
700% megas
Abilities:

[makazuwr32]

Dwarves receive +3 attack per each level of their tech.

Thus it will be 50/53/56/59/62 attack.

Also we discussed with alex dwarves after upscale and decided to make shield techs (all tiers) to give armor only thus final armor of that shielder will be 30/34.

[Savra]

For now mines are a bit on hold though because ability for them is not in the game yet for now (requires coding from stratego).

Idea of mines alex had is next:
Counts as factory, no production inside though
Speeds up production passively (!!!) of buildings in all 4 nearby tiles by 1.2-1.5 times (so it is as if you'll get 4 free couriers once per 2 turns for those 4 factories for 1.5 times speed up).

What is required by stratego is allowing of fractional numbers of turns (0 is still 0 and unit/tech is finished) and ability to speed up production passively, as aura.

Hmm, actually I think I see what Alex was getting at here.

I might be able to make this without the need of stratego coding something new.

[makazuwr32]

If this is possible than implement that first and than we will rebalance a bit dwarves' cost (some more costly units probably will get a higher cost).

[Savra]

I should point out that we should probably have a limit to how high we should place units costs in game, as too costly units takes the fun out of things, even with money couriers. I might suggest 12 be are peak cost for units.

Anyway, the way I understand this, is that with this building placed near some factories, unit production is halved, so basically:
2 turn units become 1 turn.
3 turn units become 2 turn.
5 turn units become 3 turn units.
Etc.

If this is the case, we might not have to give them armour to start (except were shielded units are concerned).

[makazuwr32]

I would say that best way is to make such factory to reduce cost once per 3 or 4 turns thus it will be 33% or 25% cost reduction in total (over long time time i mean).

Not higher.
As for cost — for flyers of dwarves it could be a bit higher than that i think, maybe 13 or 14 turns (i mean of same effectiveness as imperial dragon knight). For every other unit i agree that cost must be lower.

Also i do not want to increase cost for dwarven techs.

As for bonus armor - if we will make such building to be able to use its ability once per 4 turns bonus initial armor (even +2/+2 for 3+ turn cost dwarven units) will be fine and balanced.

[Savra]

I think the flyers could max out at 12, as imperial dragon knight max's at 10, so the dwarven equivalent is 2 turns higher. Basically Defenders are just 2 turns higher then the imperials.

[makazuwr32]

Moved to dwarven subs.