General topic: Magic of races — ARCHIVED

[makazuwr32]

I want to specify magic variants each race uses:

Humans - Holy, Arcane, Elemental

Orcs - Tribal (Troll), Blood, Elemental (but no elemental summons)

Elves - Nature, Elemental (but no elemental summons)

Undeads - Dark (curses), Unholy (raise dead), Chaos (Death knight's fireball), Alchemy (in combination with Chaos, Witch's spells)

Dwarves - Alchemy, Holy, Runes

Scaledfolk - Tribal (Dragon), Holy, Dark

Please stick your suggestions for new casters to these magic groups

[LordOfAles]

This kinda killed a lot of not suggested units yet that could have been implemented in future.

[makazuwr32]

Some sorts of other tribal magic can be added.

Humans can have few unholy units.
But in general please use this concept

[General Brave]

Human should have some dark units.

[LordOfAles]

I will try to stick to this but no promises. I forget things easily.

[Tankhead]

Well this throws the demon angel race thing out the window atleast as a race of its own.

[Lynx Shafir]

Well this throws the demon angel race thing out the window atleast as a race of its own.

Why ,
they can be independent, at least the demons surely.(they have enough units for own race - with specialised magic, different from undeads one)
They use dark, chaos, elemental and unholy magic.

Also please definiate for Beastclans too.
I think - is wide variety.
Nature, tribal, /blood Arcane / dark, elemental?

[makazuwr32]

For beastclans we will decide after balancing but for sure Tribal, Dark, maybe Blood.
Tribal will have few variants.

Demons can have Chaos, Dark, Elemental, Demonic (special, some units will be able to summon their own copies but with vanishing)

As for Celestial Beings (not just angels) - Holy, Light (unique to them), Elemental

These 3 are ofc only variants because we need to balance current races first. After we will work on beastclans.

[LordOfAles]

I don't see any reason in not allowing elemental summons for elves.

[makazuwr32]

Because they have nature summons.
ents, wolves are not elemental units who have immune to any buffs/debuffs etc...
Elemental units are formed from one of 5 elements: fire, earth, water, air, lighting.
Where belong Ent: maybe Earth? or Water? And wolf - Wind? Fire?

[LordOfAles]

So if i wanted a water elemental for elves that can summon smaller water elementals that is forbidden? Sorry for all this arguing but i really hate limitations.

[makazuwr32]

Uhm...
1. i don't like idea of summon that summons more units that summons more units that summons more units that summons more units...............
2. As a water elemental - yes. But you can explain this as some sort of nature (thorn elemental is an ent not an elemental for example so it is nature and you can for example make not water elementals (especailly because there is already suggested water elemental for humans) but as a Spirit of the Spring (it is not an elemental because it is already formed from nature) so this way it can be used.

Think more wide and you will be able to generate great ideas even in current limits.
Last thing - "Nature" is fairly wide definition

[LordOfAles]

1. No you got it all wrong.
2. kk.

[Savra]

Hmm, just a new set that makes a little more sense and is more current style:

Basic magic
Races-every race
Desc: Basic magic has no element base and consists of buffs and debuffs. It is mainly passive effects but have some offensive spells like magic missile.

Elemental
Races: Every race, just pick ones that match though.
Desc: Elemental spells consist of Fire, water, earth, and air. They are a common base for which many races use.

Dark
Races:Undead, Orcs, anyone else?
Desc: dark magic involves sacrifice and trickery. It is mainly used as an offensive form and is good against living things. It consists of offensive, passive, and summons.

Holy
Races: Scaledfolk, Dwarves, Elves, Humans
Desc: Holy spells are mainly used for healing or dealing with undead and demons. It works both as a support and a offensive means.

Arcane
Races: Humans, Elves, I think that's it.
Desc: Arcane magic is powerful, but requires tremendous concentration. It is capable of disintegrating its targets of shattering armour. This in its self is the strongest form of magic.

Ethereal
Races: Humans, Elves, Orcs
Desc: Ethereal magic is the combination of light and air. It is capable of passing through solid objects and breaking enemy enchantments. It can be used by many races, and mainly consists of illusions and offensive spells.

Ruin
Races: Dwarves
Desc: Ruins were discovered by the dwarves as an alternative to magic since they lack the ability to use some forms. They are crafted so they can't be disenchanted by normal means with the exception of Ethereal magic. They are powerful but mainly passive based, we're most combat forms involve the users weapons.

Nature
Races: Elves
Nature magic consists of communicating with nature itself. Those who use it can manipulate the forest and it's creatures to assist them in battle. It mainly consists of summons, offensive spells, and passive spells.

[Savra]

The way the races use the spells can be defined like this:
Humans: mages and priests
Elves: druids and mages
Orcs: shamans
Undead: dark mages
Dwarves: rune mages and priests
Scaledfolk: shamans and priests

Basically by shamans I'm saying they work like mages only in the usual shaman ways in using spirits.

Druids use nature

Rune mages use runes.

[makazuwr32]

Hmm, just a new set that makes a little more sense and is more current style:

Basic magic
Races-every race
Desc: Basic magic has no element base and consists of buffs and debuffs. It is mainly passive effects but have some offensive spells like magic missile.

Comment: there is no basic magic. Please remove this. Buffs and debuffs must be in separate magics or otherwise every race must have same buffs and debuffs because they all have same access to this magic.

Elemental
Races: Every race, just pick ones that match though.
Desc: Elemental spells consist of Fire, water, earth, and air. They are a common base for which many races use.

Comment: we already agreed that there are 6 elements: fire, ice, wind, earth, water, lighting. Elemental summons are part of this as well.
Also not all races have access to this magic - only orcs, humans, elves and frostfire clan of dwarves (but not main body of dwarves).


Dark
Races:Undead, Orcs, anyone else?
Desc: dark magic involves sacrifice and trickery. It is mainly used as an offensive form and is good against living things. It consists of offensive, passive, and summons.

Comment: only undeads and demons. Orcs have close to it but a bit different still blood magic. Also it constists of offensive and curses. Raise dead is unholy magic.

Holy
Races: Scaledfolk, Dwarves, Elves, Humans
Desc: Holy spells are mainly used for healing or dealing with undead and demons. It works both as a support and a offensive means.

Comment: not only. Holy magic also can be used as buffing magic (holy shield of paladins and ritual of holy protection).

Arcane
Races: Humans, Elves, I think that's it.
Desc: Arcane magic is powerful, but requires tremendous concentration. It is capable of disintegrating its targets of shattering armour. This in its self is the strongest form of magic.

Comment: only humans. Also it has not only offensive spells but also debuffing and buffing. And it is not most powerful.

Ethereal
Races: Humans, Elves, Orcs
Desc: Ethereal magic is the combination of light and air. It is capable of passing through solid objects and breaking enemy enchantments. It can be used by many races, and mainly consists of illusions and offensive spells.

Comment: completely disagree with this. It must be part of arcane magic i think.

Rune
Races: Dwarves
Desc: Runes were discovered by the dwarves as an alternative to magic since they lack the ability to use some forms. They are crafted so they can't be disenchanted by normal means with the exception of Ethereal magic. They are powerful but mainly passive based, we're most combat forms involve the users weapons.

Comment: corrected name.

Nature
Races: Elves
Nature magic consists of communicating with nature itself. Those who use it can manipulate the forest and it's creatures to assist them in battle. It mainly consists of summons, offensive spells, and passive spells.

Comment: consists of summons, damaging spells, buffing spells and debuffing spells.

Additional magic types:
1. Tribal (orc/troll): orcs are using shamanic rituals to use magic for supporting allies.
1.1. Blood (orcs): some rituals involve fresh blood from sacrifices.
2. Tribal (scaledfolks): their shamans are using their own shamanic rituals to support their allies.
3. Alchemy: mixing of specific ingridients for making potions and such. Can be offensive, buffing and debuffing. Undeads and dwarves own knowledge of this magic.
4. Chaos magic: more destructive variant of elemental magic, only ubdeads and demons have access to this. Consists of offensive spells and specific demonic summons.
5. Unholy magic: raise dead, mixing unit bones into one more powerful unit (summon skeleton dragon). Undead only.

[Tankhead]

Im sorry but im not getting the point of this topic.
Your categorizing types of magic?
What's the purposes?

[Lynx Shafir]

@Tankhead

Please stick your suggestions for new casters to these magic groups

For this reason
(bcoz of story, lore, and race advantages)
And sanity to have no undead using holy spells or plants summoning ")

(Also humans being" good" at evryhing may get mixed casters )
Holy for scafolk is still instabil (having only kobold priestess???)
Some more , water /"nature" casters needed

[Tankhead]

@Tankhead

Please stick your suggestions for new casters to these magic groups

For this reason
(bcoz of story, lore, and race advantages)
And sanity to have no undead using holy spells or plants summoning ")

(Also humans being" good" at evryhing may get mixed casters )
Holy for scafolk is still instabil (having only kobold priestess???)
Some more , water /"nature" casters needed

Oh, But I thought it was fairly obvious what type of magic and casters get for different races
Im assuming this must be for people who don't know

[Savra]

Hmm, just a new set that makes a little more sense and is more current style:

Basic magic
Races-every race
Desc: Basic magic has no element base and consists of buffs and debuffs. It is mainly passive effects but have some offensive spells like magic missile.

Comment: there is no basic magic. Please remove this. Buffs and debuffs must be in separate magics or otherwise every race must have same buffs and debuffs because they all have same access to this magic.

Elemental
Races: Every race, just pick ones that match though.
Desc: Elemental spells consist of Fire, water, earth, and air. They are a common base for which many races use.

Comment: we already agreed that there are 6 elements: fire, ice, wind, earth, water, lighting. Elemental summons are part of this as well.
Also not all races have access to this magic - only orcs, humans, elves and frostfire clan of dwarves (but not main body of dwarves).


Dark
Races:Undead, Orcs, anyone else?
Desc: dark magic involves sacrifice and trickery. It is mainly used as an offensive form and is good against living things. It consists of offensive, passive, and summons.

Comment: only undeads and demons. Orcs have close to it but a bit different still blood magic. Also it constists of offensive and curses. Raise dead is unholy magic.

Holy
Races: Scaledfolk, Dwarves, Elves, Humans
Desc: Holy spells are mainly used for healing or dealing with undead and demons. It works both as a support and a offensive means.

Comment: not only. Holy magic also can be used as buffing magic (holy shield of paladins and ritual of holy protection).

Arcane
Races: Humans, Elves, I think that's it.
Desc: Arcane magic is powerful, but requires tremendous concentration. It is capable of disintegrating its targets of shattering armour. This in its self is the strongest form of magic.

Comment: only humans. Also it has not only offensive spells but also debuffing and buffing. And it is not most powerful.

Ethereal
Races: Humans, Elves, Orcs
Desc: Ethereal magic is the combination of light and air. It is capable of passing through solid objects and breaking enemy enchantments. It can be used by many races, and mainly consists of illusions and offensive spells.

Comment: completely disagree with this. It must be part of arcane magic i think.

Rune
Races: Dwarves
Desc: Runes were discovered by the dwarves as an alternative to magic since they lack the ability to use some forms. They are crafted so they can't be disenchanted by normal means with the exception of Ethereal magic. They are powerful but mainly passive based, we're most combat forms involve the users weapons.

Comment: corrected name.

Nature
Races: Elves
Nature magic consists of communicating with nature itself. Those who use it can manipulate the forest and it's creatures to assist them in battle. It mainly consists of summons, offensive spells, and passive spells.

Comment: consists of summons, damaging spells, buffing spells and debuffing spells.

Additional magic types:
1. Tribal (orc/troll): orcs are using shamanic rituals to use magic for supporting allies.
1.1. Blood (orcs): some rituals involve fresh blood from sacrifices.
2. Tribal (scaledfolks): their shamans are using their own shamanic rituals to support their allies.
3. Alchemy: mixing of specific ingridients for making potions and such. Can be offensive, buffing and debuffing. Undeads and dwarves own knowledge of this magic.
4. Chaos magic: more destructive variant of elemental magic, only ubdeads and demons have access to this. Consists of offensive spells and specific demonic summons.
5. Unholy magic: raise dead, mixing unit bones into one more powerful unit (summon skeleton dragon). Undead only.

This is a more simplified version.

1) basic magic is just were magic missile and such belong. No base.

2) Elements consist of Fire, water, earth, and wind because the other 2, lightning and ice, fall into one of those categories. Ice to water, lightning to wind.

3)Dark pretty much covers unholy magic and chaotic magic, so it stays the same.

4) support means self buffs as well.

5)Ethereal is not the same as arcane. Ethereal is a combination of light and air and has lots of uses of its own.

6)Arcane is understood by few and elves do know how to use it. Arcane is also quit powerful and requires more concentration as such. That is why only 2 races know it and they only can have very few units (1-2) that can use it.

7)thx.

8) that's basically what I meant.

9) Tribal could be another. But you could mix blood in with it since some tribal Ceremonies consist of sacrifice. It also consists of communicating with spirits. Thus is based like
Offensive, summons, passive, sacrifice.

10) Alchemy could be another. Alternatives to normal magic and consists of potions. Varies in spells.

[General Brave]

It's some herbes.

[makazuwr32]

This is a more simplified version.

1) basic magic is just were magic missile and such belong. No base.

2) Elements consist of Fire, water, earth, and wind because the other 2, lightning and ice, fall into one of those categories. Ice to water, lightning to wind.

3)Dark pretty much covers unholy magic and chaotic magic, so it stays the same.

4) support means self buffs as well.

5)Ethereal is not the same as arcane. Ethereal is a combination of light and air and has lots of uses of its own.

6)Arcane is understood by few and elves do know how to use it. Arcane is also quit powerful and requires more concentration as such. That is why only 2 races know it and they only can have very few units (1-2) that can use it.

7)thx.

8) that's basically what I meant.

9) Tribal could be another. But you could mix blood in with it since some tribal Ceremonies consist of sacrifice. It also consists of communicating with spirits. Thus is based like
Offensive, summons, passive, sacrifice.

10) Alchemy could be another. Alternatives to normal magic and consists of potions. Varies in spells.

1. Magic missle belongs to arcane or nature as i see. (Those who can use nature magic they can get more energy from objects around, form an energy cluster of high potency and shoot it to enemy).

2. I mean not ice itself but chilling/freezing. And it is NOT water/air. Also lighting is not an air because they have different nature - lighting is electric impulse of extremly high voltage while air/wind is just difference between atmosphere pressure. It is like to compare lava and water - they both are liquids. But water is water and lava is mix of earth and fire elements.

3. No. Dark magic is mainly curses and sacrifices.
And it can be used by humans as well.
Unholy is raise dead, demon summons.
And chaotic magic is completely different - it involves otherworldy energies to channel spell. It is also used to open between-world-portals.

4. Support means self buffs as well, yes. But not otherwise - self buffs doesn't mean support in general.

5. Etherial doesn't made from elemental magic. It is not a mix of elements. Or otherwise for examle unholy magic can be seen as mix of earth, chill and lighting. And dark magic as mix of fire, earth and lighting.
Also for now we don't have any etherial spells.

6. Arcane must be human only. Elves use elemental magic and nature magic to form same spells. And because it is more powerful and more hard to use form of magic human casters have higher turn costs (for example warmage if compare to elf blade singer).
Magic missle is arcane/nature magic spell. It is a cluster of magic energy and without great ability to control it you can't use it. Best in it are nature users and arcane users.

9. Tribal is tribal. Shamanic magic, close to nature magic but with less caring about nature itself. It drinks all powers from nature. Also some magic creatures are born with magic (dragons for example) and this is also tribal magic.

10. Alchemy can't make summons though. Only offensive, support and debuffing.

[Savra]

Fine we'll add Unholy and chaotic. As for Ethereal I said it is a light-air base because that's how it works. It's light that can pass through objects unhindered. The Ethereal spells to be would be:
Ethereal bolt - dmg:8, rng:7, disenchant, no cool, no research.
Ethereal storm - dmg:8, aoe:3, rng:6, disenchant, cool:3, rsch: 5
Ethereal shield - rng: self, adds +30% to resistance. Reduces incoming spells that by half.
Ethereal spirit - transforms user into an Ethereal spirit on death.
Ethereal form - same as above but more powerful and unique.
Ethereal destruction - rng:6, dmg:12, aoe:1, disenchant, cool:5

All ethereal spells can break Any enchantment. Even runes thus making the runes less op.

Also removing from orcs so only humans and elves can use. Couldn't think of an Orc one.

Btw, these all don't go to one unit they must be spread out and the Ethereal destruction spell and Ethereal form are for a Unique unit only.

[Savra]

How about for offensive arcane spells we make it break away 20% of enemies resistance temporarily, instead of disarmour?

[makazuwr32]

No. No for etherial in way as you suggest.
Light can't pass as you think "everything in its way".
And even more your suggestions sound like actually dark/void/space rather than real etherial.

Ether is otherworld that connected with normal world, world of spirits. Etherial energy can be used to transport enemy unit to that dimension (temporary) or summon void walker from it.
No ultimate disenchant - runes are not so powerful as you think:
1. Most runes last 1 turn. They must be undisenchantable.
2. Not all runes are appliable to units. Some are summoned as units on the field which can be easily destroyed by units.
3. Unit runes must be researched first. Each unit rune. Addition of way to disenchant them will make some of runes (especially protective ones) useless.
4. Many non-weapon-like effect (temporary) runes will already have some downgrades (like protection rune will lower damage of unit or speed).
Ultimate disenchant will make many (if not ALL!!!) runes literally useless.

No spell resist changing active abilities.

Also disarmor is actually quite useful spell. More useful than you think (alas in this game it is better to get +damage than -armor if you can choose).

[Savra]

Ok then Ethereal will lower resistance b 20% on enemy for 3 turns and arcane can lower enemy armour by -1/-1 for 2 turns.

This way ethereal is good vs high resistance fows and can lower their resistance so other spell casters can cast passive offensive spells on them easier.

Arcane would be good vs heavy armoured fows so your troops can better face them.

Note only Humans mainly benefit from this and it will make them better spell casters.

Btw, regarding spell casters I still don't like the idea of humans being the best. I mean, in the future mages would be are new way of going since every other unit style is already filled up so my suggestion for a solution is this:

Define each races expertise in magic:
Humans: Have the most spells but most are mainly buff, and debuff spells. Summons require research before use.

Elves: Have the best summons meaning they require no additional steps to summon units. All their mages or at least 75% should have at least one summon if they are to be the best.

Orcs: have best healers and support, few spells but some of the stronger ones require sacrifice. Summons require sacrifice to use.

Undead: Have best debuff spells and can make use of a wider spell range. They focus mainly on reanimation and require corpses to use their summons.

Dwarves: Mainly focus on runes and alternatives to spells. Theirs don't last long, and require research for most and mainly focus on support for troops.

Scaledfolk: Theirs are mainly support. Some weak offensive spells but overall they are support based. Their summons require bigger cool downs.

This is based off now they seem right now in game and through their suggestions. Scaledfolk is a little weird but we'll manage. This way Humans still have best spell casters but doesn't cancel out other races spell casters meaning you can have the same amount of spell casters but over all humans and up with best because they can have more spells.

[makazuwr32]

1. Again................................
NO SPELL RESIST CHANGING ABILITIES. IN ANY WAY. AT ALL.

2. No basic effect for any magic type.

3. Humans must be one of the best at support magic (9/10). Great at offensive magic (8.5/10), debuffing magic (8/10) and healing magic (8/10). Good at summoning magic (6.5/10).
For comparison dwarves are best at support (10/10) but bad at offencive magic (2.5/10), debuffing magic (3.5/10), good at healing magic (7/10), average at summoning magic (4/10).
That what i meant - humans will have all types of magic on pretty good level.

Full table i will post later.

[Savra]

If humans are supposed to be good at everything magic wise, then what's the point of saying elves are good with summons, and why do undead have so many casters? Dwarves were Never supposed to be good with magic support of other wise. You want to give humans and dwarves should have best casters but I say No (To dwarves). The reason being?

Dwarves
Have better builders, and buildings.
Best blacksmith upgrades.
Best armour.
Best siege equipment.

From what I'm seeing you want dwarves to have:
Best warriors.
Best casters.

Dwarves do not need good casters, they were never known to be the best casters and rely more on their science and ingenuity more. Gnomes are more magic based.

Humans

Can have best casters by having more spells to use.
Humans: 6 spells max for a unit.
Elves: 5 spells max. (Their magic users, they don't rely much on technology.) They are the best summoners like they were originally.
Orcs: 4 spells max.
Undead: 4-5 spells max.
Dwarves: 3-4 spells max.
Scaledfolk: 4 spells max.

Elves must have best summoners, not humans. Or else get rid of elementals entirely from humans. (Not recommended btw, they should just have some extra cost to keep Elves as the best.)

Look closely at the units we have and what we're suggesting. Notice any copy's? All I see is a majority are no more then copies of another, neck you might as well make them an upgrade. The sub races being suggested are a good example. This was a basis for future units since spell casters and heroes are the only things we'll be seeing then since we'll end up with too many copy units. They
That is why I suggested this style. It doesn't undermine humans ability to be best casters but rather opens the door for more spell casters for other races without crossing too much bounds. Were orcs would need 2 different spell casters to fulfill one thing, Humans can accomplish with 1. That is what I'm saying.

[makazuwr32]

Who said that they will have best casters?
Dwarves will have best support due to researchable runes for their units.

Not because they will have best casters.

Also dwarves should be one of the best infantries and only orcs can surpass them.
I will later post in strengths and weaknesses full table how i see races' weaknesses and strengths. But it is far more complicated than you think because there is i think (don't remember for 100% now though) 15-20 points in which i compare races.

Not just "damage", "armor", "spellcasters", "buildings".

[Savra]

Who said that they will have best casters?
Dwarves will have best support due to researchable runes for their units.

Not because they will have best casters.

Also dwarves should be one of the best infantries and only orcs can surpass them.
I will later post in strengths and weaknesses full table how i see races' weaknesses and strengths. But it is far more complicated than you think because there is i think (don't remember for 100% now though) 15-20 points in which i compare races.

Not just "damage", "armor", "spellcasters", "buildings".

Meh, I tried to simplify it. I kinda figured their was more to it then just that.