Discussion on race mounts.

[Savra]

Ok, so to prevent sentinels from going off topic too much we should carry are discussion here.

Humans:
In general:
Hourses - main
Elephant - 2 unit
Dragons - 1 unit
Griphons - 1 unit

Elves:
In general:
Unicorns - main
Elk - 1 unit
Pegasus - 1 unit
Eagles - 3 unit
Theirs more but they are still being discussed.

Orcs:
Orc cav:
Wargs - 1 unit
Raptors - 1 unit
Wyvren - 1 unit
Goblins:
Squig - 1 unit
Bat - 1 unit
Hobgoblin:
Spider - 1 unit
Skrill - 1 unit
Uruks:
Caragor - 1 unit

Water goblin:
Crocodile - 1 unit

Undead:
Any...

Dwarves:
Hogs - main
Bears - 1 unit
Rams - 1 unit
Mammoth - 1

Scaledfolk:
Monitors - main
Salamander (needs someone)
Trex - 1 unit


Hogs mean all hog breeds from boars to pigs.

Monitors mean all monitor lizards which include monitors, komodos, and megalania.

Orcs may seem like they have a lot but they are more then one race as part of their main for one, 2 they only have 1 cavalry for that type and those cavalry are usually pack hunter creatures meaning they are easier to take out of the other predators.

Technically water goblins crocodile counts somewhat as a cavalry but it has bonus to only amphibious units and ships only.

[makazuwr32]

Pegasus are for elves.
For elves as well are eagles as mountable units (when images for them will be ready...)
Also panthers, sabretooths for elves.

For dwarves add mammoths, boars.

[Tankhead]

Are you taking in account of subs as well cause that's what it looks like

[makazuwr32]

Not only.
Pegasus is planned for main body of elves.
Sabertooth for sentinels.
Boars are in main body and mammoths are planned as well for main body of dwarves.

But mammoth for main body would be more like elephant of humans with less attack and higher health.

[Savra]

No on sabertooths for elves, they have enough mounts for main body considering its only wood elves who are the main body.

Orcs may have a lot in their main body but as you've noticed they have more then one race as a part of that.

Sabertooths lived in mountains and plains, not forests, wood elves stick to the forests.

Another race we could give the sabertooths to without as much problem is undead. It's extinct sooo, it could be a zombie sabertooth with a skeleton..

[Tankhead]

I agree
Idk why most people think most animals and other creatures belong just to elves

And I never heard of elves riding sabertooths
Not even subs

That's more of an orcish thing to do

Im agreeing on savra on this one. Let's stop and think how elves are.
They aren't exactly friendly with open arms even to they're own kin.
If you think every forest animal belongs to just elves that's a huge nope.
Also Sabers habitat don't even fit elves

[Savra]

Exactly.

Wild riders can remain with an elk mount because that's a special unit.

As for the rest of wood elf ground cavalry, if you read through the elf topics you'll find that it was mentioned for more variants of the unicorn rider since that was the elves original mount.

[General Brave]

Isn't humans usually depicted using Griffin's and Pegasus.

[Savra]

Well, humans are the ones who usually ride Pegasus and griphons, as well as dragons too.

As for elves I've actually never heard of it nor seen any images.

[Lynx Shafir]

Saberthooth is fine as elven mount,

the protector mount it not named anyway.
For image looks better than a horse like thing
If u don't like the "exact" saberthooth than
Name it VIPOTI -
It's a yellow, brown fur cat like animal
With long tooth....
#randomname


For elves I saw stranger things as mounts than a 4 leg animal.

And ork have enough mounts too.

[Savra]

Elves can have a unicorn mount for protector, too many things disprove the sabertooths from them. 1 being they are not from the same terrain.

The whole reason the sabertooths got in as their h unit in the first place was because I mentioned it first as an Orc one then we went to Sun Elves then to wood, but the problem remains that they do not cross in the same environment. This is a giant cat we're talking about here, which is faster then a bear and more quiet. They are solitary predators unlike how all orcs mounts, discluding the dragon breeds, are.
Raptors - pack hunters - easier to tame
Wargs - pack hunters - easier to tame
Caragors - pack hunters - easier to tame

Sabertooths - solitary hunters - difficult to tame.

Again the only ones stupid enough to take them would be orcs and they tend to go after pack animals instead.
Sabertooths would have killed and eaten the elf no matter what they tried to do, even if they are defenders of nature the likely hood of the sabertooths caring is 0% because of their hungry, who ever looks like the easiest to eat is on the menu.

Elves protector rides unicorn, that's wood elves main mount.

And this is the general race mounts not the sub races mounts, the sub races could use this as a bases.

[Midonik]

Well don't elfs have some taming magic? I mean not in game, but they can, for example, see with the eyes of animals and stuff so probably yes. Well the question of environment remains anyway.

[Tankhead]

Sorry but no
I don't like the idea of throwing in a animal to elves that has nothing to do with them unless you wanna start doing that with the other races
And since when taming magic works on everything animal?
I remember ppl suggesting mounts for humans/Dwarves/Scalefolk that has nothing to do with them and the answer for that was a no
Elves no exception

[Savra]

These are the issues:
1. It's a solitary predator, you'd have to be a solitary race that doesn't associate with one another.
2. The way Elves act, defy's this cats nature, when it wants to kill something it's not going to let the elf rider stop it, it'll just eat the rider as well. Orcs understand this, orcs know how predators act no matter if they are solitary or not and they don't care what the mount eats even if it's one of their own troops.
3. The environment's are different.
4. The cat would be slower then the unicorn meaning the Protector would have 4 speed instead of the average elf cavalry speed. Speed is what elves would be looking for, over strength.
5. Unicorns are roughly as strong as the average horse, they might be stronger. They also have higher resistance then that of a sabertooths.

Those are the issues that make the sabertooths a miss as a elven mount.

If the reason to have it as a mount is because you just, "want it" then that is a no. Not a good enough reason. Elves still will get a feline as a steed and that's the panther but it goes in with moon elves and it matches their style. Sun Elves might get their own style that might not be a feline but if it is then it would be a tiger most likely because the environment matches at least, and they match more their culture. But sabertooths for Elves in general is a big No. The only ones it would match is Orcs (in a sub race, or rather a sub faction), and undead as a zombie mount that has a skeleton or some ancient Undead.

If you really want the sabertooths as a elven mount then make a Undead sub faction for Dark elves.

Elves who were tortured and imbued with dark magic to the point were they hate all life and were gifted by the undead Ferocious sabertooths that were brought back from the grave. Imbued with unnatural speed they are perfect for the dark elves. That is the only way Elves can get sabertooths even though technically it's still a part of the Undead faction much like the veil. It would make sense.

[Lynx Shafir]

No. As said earlier add them an fictiv animal
Whos lifestyle fits elves
Aka the forest cousin"of saberthooth.

I don't like to have unicorns here too.

1.pointless to reason with non existing animals traits
What is slow and what wud be fast
It's about personal preferences.

If u force so badly the unicorn
We force the "non saberthooth" cat.

1.being solitary means it's perfect for a mount.
2.its not about craziness to team a animal
If they are capable.
3.this plain cats aren't uncontrollable savage beast.
4
In some setting they ride giant rats, spirit tigers,collaborate with many beings they live with.
5.
U cud come up eagles live in mountains, are solitary so don't fit.
....

But again
CLOSE this pointless arguing

Namely the protector has no reference to mount - perfect let's ur imagination to guess.
2wait till a leader gives a feedback

As for us cat like is perfect.

[Tankhead]

You know how many fantasy settings their is?

If going by that logic any race can ride anything
Simply by saying "well, in this fantasy setting"

Again sabers dont fit elves atleast not here
If Given the choice No unicorn either

Give it something different but still matches elves

[makazuwr32]

Elves are most bound with nature itself so yes it is much easier for them to tame any wild life than for others (they are taming wildlife not via force but different way) so i see nothing wrong here. Alas they can tame only plain and forest creatures, not desert ones (they didn't evrn meet with them).

Exactly sabertooth can be moved to rising sun from wood ones if you don't like but remember that elves can tame nearly anything that lives in forest/on plains. But not everything lives in elven forests

Also Lynx thanks about owl mount idea for elves. I will put this to new moon elves.

For humans you can easily add elephants, camels.

As for orcs — they have most difference of mounts, not elves (8 different mounts!!! And how can we show that elves are friends of nature when their enemies have more variety of mounts and pets?!). No need to add more variants them. Or we will get that elves can ride only unicorns (which means that actually they are not so friends with wildlife). Also unicorns are pretty peaceful creatures and they are not so good at carrying heavy armored warriors and they can't be bred to get ones.

Stop suggesting more mounts for orcs. Crocodile riders for merlocks is too much!

[StormSaint373]

Wait, didn't the elves get a deer scout or something?

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=6354

[makazuwr32]

Wild riders is suggested by mencelot, yes. But it is not a "scout". It will be more like real alternative to imperial knight.

[StormSaint373]

Elven Outrider is a scout... That rides a deer.

Look again, different topic.

[Savra]

Sabertooths for sun elves seem more ok, I didn't exactly here their environment but it seems to fit.
Again, orcs are split into multiple races all apart of one group. Orcs themselves have just wargs, raptors, wyvrens and that's it. They even have other topics that expand on the wargs. Elves are one race who have multiple mounts suggested. Unicorns are as strong as a normal hourse the only difference is they have a horn. The wood elves sentinels don't have super heavy armour which means it's not too much wait on the course anyway, elves prefer mobility more when it comes to armour. I didn't say orcs were getting a new cavalry but they were being used as an example. Wargs have always been with orcs because they were specially breed from wolves by the orcs to be a good mount, the main difference between predatory mounts and herbivorous mounts is based on mobility.
Predators don't have good mobility and can't run for long distances or turn on a dime like a horse can. Let's use the imperial knight and the caragor rider as an example, though the caragor being a cat is fast and can traverse rough terrain easier, the horse has a much higher stamina and mobility, the reason humanity chose horses was because they have more speed and can cover more miles. They did not choose the carnivores as mounts because of there flaws. The only carnivore humans used was the dog because of its pack instincts. Orcs only look at the creatures capability to kill.

Back to sentinels and sabertooths, if you were to use sabertooths as a special cavalry like wild riders are and not a cavalry unit for sentinels it would be more acceptable. Sentinels are only elite variants of the average units just like the other elites. That's why the sabertooths were a bad choice for a mount forn them. If you want them to be a cavalry for wood elves then make it a specialty mount like the death knight is.

[makazuwr32]

But protector is special already. I am not planning any anti cav cavalry unit apart from protector.
Maybe not exactly sabertooth but some kitty will be better than unicorn.

Also unicorns are just a sub of horses. A one type of breed among many variants.

[Lynx Shafir]

Another thoug question is undead cavalry


1.therr are many cavalry suggestions for undeads.

As for phantom one. (Bull knight)
I think is too much
I saw some saying the same on discord

1.they have 2 elites (death and spectral
Both already for mansion)
Putting a third one...
Reallythematically seems off.

2.its far from original idea of slow but heavy armored units.

3.pteferably add more undeadish units
And leave other heavy cavalry for blood /unholy order.
More interesting as a walking armor, those may have some abilities.
4.to not copy the imperial structure..

Avoiding that phantoms fill all important roles
(both for cheap and extensive units)

5.logically - u curse an armor to ride an other cursed armor.
When u can make a monster from it.
A bit weird chose if u have the knowledge to do.
6.(namely cud be an spirit unit possessing a bull body)

For heavy tank the juggernaut seems perfect.


The Bull knight.
Can keep for map editor.

[Savra]

Cavalry is kinda undead main strength, taking cavalry away from phantoms is kinda like ignoring their strengths as if they didn't exist. It's fine as the undeads elite cavalry because the death knight and spectral rider are specialty cavalry that have abilities but are weaker then the imperial knight. Bull knight on the other hand is on par with, or stronger than the imperial knight like how undead cavalry are supposed to be. It's a slap in the face if anyone else's elite cavalry surpasses this. It's even worse if the face that specializes in that category doesn't have that as part of their elite group. (It would be like taking the Sentry away from the sentinels because elves already have other archer variants.) Elites are nothing more then advanced groups of the main race.

[Tankhead]

Walking armor doesn't need abilities
Unless all other elites can an ability too
From other races

As for bull knight I see nothing wrong, they are elites

And comparing death knight and those other special units to elites is bad
Every race has those special units that are on par or better than elites