Reduced damage and lives for orcs and their friends - ANSWERED

[Anchar]

Reduced damage and lives for orcs and their friends.
My question is, now that the scaling is done, are you going to reduce the lives and attack for the orcs and their minions?

Now, due to scaling, the orcs gained too many lives: for example, now the troll shaman can finally stop being afraid of archers; it is now impossible to burn the ball thrower troll if he is healed by the same troll shaman; Troll Hunter (who dodges all ranged attacks) can no longer be killed even by a swordsman.

[Huttensohn]

The troll hunter dodge can't be serious, this must be a bug?

I also agree with you, it is just ridiculous, how vital and tanky orcs are (and then its easy to upgrade) and how your elf troops are just an army of one - and two hit fodder for them.

[Anchar]

I think that making them lower than now, but generally higher by ~ 10, and the attack ~ 3

[Savra]

I would be for the headhunter getting the same dodge as the humans and dwarves skirmishers, as for health decrease and attack decrease, or even cost increase of units I doubt that will get through. Your best bet is to work on stuff that help races fight races like orcs.

Elves aren't going to be good in melee against orcs anyway so best bet is to give them some better ranged units and buffs, perhaps additional aimed shots upgrades for their archers or even a longbow archer who could have better range then their base archer + attack.

Elves also still have to get their additional units/techs, in too.

As for humans and dwarves, the humans are supposed to get armour for their base units to start with, dwarves are likely to follow as well. In the end their base units will have more if not similar armour to orcs.

I wouldn't be against orc base cavalry starting with 0/0 armour either like elves as they aren't even armoured.


Overall though, your better off making additional techs and units for other races to try and compensate, we're still having to fix bugs though so that's 1st priority.

[Alexander82]

In general the upscale got most of our time later

I'm working on buildings right now and later I'll focus again on spells.

The best bet against orc for most races will be avoiding the impact rather than going headlong against tanky units.

In general headhuntera have higher dodge as they are the most costly skirmisher and can be melted with fire (unlike any other skirmisher).

[makazuwr32]

as for me orcs have only 1 bigass bala problem - leveling techs availible in tc.
if they will be removed from it orcs will become already more balanced.

[Huttensohn]

as for me orcs have only 1 bigass bala problem - leveling techs availible in tc.
if they will be removed from it orcs will become already more balanced.

+1

[Anchar]

I completely agree with the macazuwr, placing techniques on the appropriate buildings to slow down and complicate the development of the orcs, this is the most important task number 2 (after fixing the fire effect), but it seems to me that it is not the only one, I believe that in addition to this, 100% healing of any giant needs to be reviewed. and also I do not like some orc units and their useful features such as: a goblin on a bat which is done in the city center, a troll shaman who has the most useful spells and 100% healing, ettin (who killed my imperial dragon worth 10 moves 1 on 1 in 1 turn), a spear thrower who, although the most expensive skirmisher, has 4 speeds to easily escape from swordsmen and catch up with archers, 3 shots each of which is equal in strength to 1 shot of a human anti archer (that is, at a cost of 5 moves, he makes the same thing as 3 human anti-archers worth 6 turns), the supply of lives is sufficient to survive after any 1 hit, while any anti archers are easily killed one by one, 100% healing which makes all your efforts to kill him useless, as well as the effects of amplification and armor from shamans are imposed on him - this is what I remember now. Either after these measures or after the strengthening of other races, it will be possible to consider them balanced in my opinion.

[Huttensohn]

there are also little thing. the monster cave can be built right aways while all other powerful sub races (maybe ents from the tc are an exception) need a building that can only be built once you have researched the subrace tech.

[Huttensohn]

In general the upscale got most of our time later

I'm working on buildings right now and later I'll focus again on spells.

The best bet against orc for most races will be avoiding the impact rather than going headlong against tanky units.

In general headhuntera have higher dodge as they are the most costly skirmisher and can be melted with fire (unlike any other skirmisher).

they could be melted, but if they dodge ranged attacks and kill arches like nothing, it's hard to melt them. (especially for Elve fire archer and human fire archer)

[Alexander82]

In general the upscale got most of our time later

I'm working on buildings right now and later I'll focus again on spells.

The best bet against orc for most races will be avoiding the impact rather than going headlong against tanky units.

In general headhuntera have higher dodge as they are the most costly skirmisher and can be melted with fire (unlike any other skirmisher).

they could be melted, but if they dodge ranged attacks and kill arches like nothing, it's hard to melt them. (especially for Elve fire archer and human fire archer)

That's why I said that spells are needed to balance them (damage spells can't be dodged). Anyway Fire archers have bonus against them and thus their ranged dodge is halved against them (so they can actually dodge like 1 arrows every 4).

Using any other ranged against skirmishers is useless.

[Huttensohn]

and fire archers get killed easily in one turn(1 or 2 shots out of 3) . so it's 3 turns cost to get one shot at them.

[makazuwr32]

still this unit is easiest skirmishe to kill anyway because other skirmishers do not even have ANY ranged weaknesses and thus can live longer in pure ranged fights. Against other skirmishers if you want to kill them you MUST have either any offencive magic users or some melee (infantry, cavalry or flying doesn't matter). Against this one despite the fact that it has such awesome dodge you still can use fire archers and other scources of burning (spells, enchant burning and so on).

Try to kill with only your pure range elven assaulter or dwarven ball thrower. I am pretty sure that both of them will be able to win against in fight 1 vs 10 archers each. Ofc i count both them and archers maxed. Only basic archers (tc ones i mean) but no restrictions on combo thus you can try to use for example quick archers of eles or poison archers of humans.

Current main problem of this troll headhunter is the fact that it gains full bonus attack buff from orc leader and merlock leader. Coupled with its 3 actions it is rather deadly.

With this unit specifically i see no problems right now apart from fire being a bit weaker than before. We are going to reduce i think regen for trolls to add later tech and spell for increasing it.

About 100% regen spell - later it will be moved to Ogre Mage caster which will be locked in Savage tribes sub, as for troll shaman - it will get a troll regen replacement spell that gives passive % based regen.

[Anchar]

The fire, so you know, has now become useless and made the human defense useless, now due to the fact that the orc towers have a magic shot, high area damage, and also (what Savra wrote about) an addition to the% to damage against buildings that do not at the towers of other factions. The fire problem is very serious for balance and in my opinion much more serious than the non-working elven skills and non-disappearing wolves which were very quickly fixed by contrast.

The troll javelin thrower is now the most disgusting enemy in the game, it is not possible to approach him in hand-to-hand combat, since he is guarded by more powerful orcs and archers in melee, it cannot be burned, since the effect of fire is now useless, even if you damage it, it will be cured by some shaman, he kills any archer with 3 shots, and also moves quickly, this opponent gives the orcs complete leadership in the area in which the orcs should not be leaders - in the area of ranged combat. To kill him for people, I had to fire 5-6 shots with imperial archers, what costs 25-30 moves, lower costs are pointless, since the surviving hunter will quickly run to the healer who will heal him.

[Anchar]

Also, the undead also have a similar burning fighter that does not have a speed of 4 and 100% of healing and regeneration, and his dodge percentage is 40, as opposed to 50 for a troll, if you do not want to reduce evasion, then at least reduce the troll's speed to 3

[Savra]

Undead's one can cross water and can be reanimated from any thrower corpse. Plus undead in general are the least vulnerable to arrows so they can afford a slightly weaker skirmisher. Also undead are getting another skirmisher from phantoms too.

Dwarves ball thrower can get an extra dodge buff from the last 2 shield upgrades. I think up to 10-15%.

Anyway, as mak said, plenty of the orcs stuff is getting redone anyway, making this unit less of a threat in the future, so it will become more balanced in future when those changes come but only after these bug fixes are done first.

[desatixix]

And what if Ettin goes in a bundle with 2 shamans and a thrower Troll? Who will stop them?

[Savra]

Which faction we talking about here?

If for humans you can counter with imperial archers/crossbowmen and some anti giant units or war elephant.

Undead can use death knights and mummy's with some lich's backing them up.

Elves can use glade archers and wood shapers paired with ents.

The reason I point out their archers as a means of taking those out is because glade archers and imperial archers are quite powerful if used correctly. The imperial crossbowmen is extremely useful in taking out armoured enemies as well. The troll thrower has 4 range at base and 6 at max, so you can easily outrange it.

You can also make use of mages for humans that can disarmour enemies or the fear abilities for undead units to lower their armour too.


Alas, it depends on the situation however.

[Huttensohn]

The difference is, the troll is much easier to get, build a cave, build, and go. comparable with an elf wizard. with the difference of the superior orc labourer without the need of an upgrade.

glade archer in comparison is a unit I don't even get in basically all games on 20/20 or so maps.

[Huttensohn]

the Elven problem is not so much the lack of a counter to that troll, the problem is not having units with such a break through power.

And the troll ball throwers can of course be combined with a counter to your counter (head hunter) ..

[Huttensohn]

the Elven problem is not so much the lack of a counter to that troll, the problem is not having units with such a break through power.

And the troll ball throwers can of course be combined with a counter to your counter (head hunter) ..

[Savra]

This is true, which is why I said it depends on the situation.

We could make trolls be unlockable units similar to monster skeletons, ents, and human siege units at the cost of roughly 4-5 turns. They wouldn't be a full sub though but rather unlockable through their troll hut.

@Alexander82 needs to approve this though.

We could also just lock the cave troll (big trolls) behind it so you only start with the base ones.

[Huttensohn]

I think this would be a fair solution. the standard orcs have quite some bandwidth and goblins don't get used a lot an away, soo..

[makazuwr32]

i'd say all trolls should be locked behind such tech, not only big ones.
We do not allow any non-laborer ent to be trainable without their locking tech or any ranged mechanical human siege without ballistics tech.

Same must be applied to trolls.
Maybe even 2 levels - to unlock normal trolls first and to unlock big trolls second.

Alas both normal and water trolls would be unlockable together.

[Savra]

We can lock them behind 1 sub tech, like ents, and it will effect all trolls.

Tech will be 5-6 turns to research. At troll hut.

[makazuwr32]

fine for me.

[makazuwr32]

Answered and implemented.