Undead can't counter Stone Shelter - ANSWERED

[Nsyion]

I just had an initially fun, but quickly turned-frustrating multiplayer fight with me as undead against orcs. There simply was nothing I could do against a spam of their towers.

In its current state, with the following stats:
110 hp
12 damage (melee, burning, aoe)
5 range
4 armor and 8 pierce.
2 carry
a heal of 10/turn for garrisoned units(despite listed as 2 in description)
and 250% build/mend bonus. (Takes 5 turns for a goblin +1 for foundation to build, or 3 orc peon + 1 for foundation, or the same 5 + 1 for water servants. However, their workers can be whipped, allowed them to easily put up full towers in a single player's turn.)
an ability (to counter anything with high armor)
and bonus damage vs siege weapons, wagons and undead.
But since that's not enough, they can get a further +8 dmg, +4 range/ability range via techs. (respectively costing 4,5,6 and 7 turns from either TC or mega building)

For comparison, the human Fortress:
100 hp
6 damage (burning)
7 range
2 armor and 8 perice
again 2 carry and 10 hp/turn for units inside.
and 100% mental resistance (which doesn't seem to block fireball and magic arrow anyway?)
But a mere 50% construction/mend bonus. (7+1 worker turns, which anyway cost 3 instead of 2 turns to make. Or, after Ambidextria 5 +1).
and no bonus damage outside of the fire.
In terms of upgrades it can only get +2 dmg/range, only from blacksmith (which can't be sped up by couriers) for 4 and 5 turns respectively, and then supposedly 50 hp, 80% mend but I'm not sure masonry/massive walls work that way based on stats.

Elf don't even have damage output from their towers, but its
70 hp
vision aura (range 0)
6 pierce armor
1 carry, same 10 heal rate
0% building bonus, 100% mending (takes 9 +1 turns of either worker, or after Ambidextria 6 + 1)

Finally, Undead which realistically would be building graveyard towers anyway:
90 hp
4 dmg
4 range
2/8 armor
2 carry, no heal.
150%/100% bonus ( 6 +1 worker, or 4 +1 laborer).
spawns vanishing golem on death or can swap early.

Some things that are already clear:
Orc is only one with a fixed damage ability
Orc is only one with AoE
Orc is only one with bonus damage on main projectile
Orc is only one with melee damage
Orc is only one that can be built in a single player turn without deleting workers or having them pre-placed
Orc have most damage.
Orc have the most mend boost.

Anyway, onto the problem. Undead can't out-range, one-shot (with a single exception that's not relevant) or move fast enough to close the gap.
Necromancer with +2 range on magic arrow is 8 and needs 2 hits to break them.
Skull Thrower has 6 range at best tier and need 3 hits.
The cavalry (which anyway lack siege boost) have 5 speed at best.
Wrecking Ball while able to one-shot has 2 speed, at best 3. Being undead, it too will quickly fall to the massive x3 multiplier.
Ghost Vessel's Cannonball is range 7 and needs 2 hits.
Even a tanky Phantom Axeman will need 4 hits, and still die very fast. Reviving won't help since it can't move same turn.
Gargoyles have 4 speed (and need 5 hits to kill)
Monster ballista has range 7, and either needs 3 hits if melee or 4 if ranged damage (im unsure which
Flesh golem needs 4 hits.

And while most of the above units can land a hit or 2, they promptly die which places the undead player several turns back in production where's orc can build another (or if it survived by even a tiny amount repair) tower much faster.

Other orcs are able to counter with stone throwers easily or just tanks, elves can simply tank the 12 damage with armored units or use ent throwers or even evasion to handle them, and humans have their own tanks, the option to out-range with trebuchets or even something like the dual-casting (or even triple) warmagi.

Some ideas that come to mind would be removing aoe or lowering build/mend boost or lowering range, or even inaccuracy.

[makazuwr32]

wrecking ball's self buff is self stackable and thus can get max speed 6.

Also later we will reconsider stats of all buildings.

[Savra]

Actually wrecking balls ability can't stack unless it changed just recently because I remember using a wrecking ball 2 days ago.

Also I think that maybe the bone golem could get aoe on its melee attack since it is quite massive.

[Savra]

Btw, in future orcs will have more tower options to choose from however, the other tower would be rather flimsy compared to the stone shelter and in turn I believe the stone shelter will just end up being like the humans fortress in that it will get a lower mend bonus. Currently being that this is orcs only defensive tower, that's why it takes so little time.

This same point can also be said for dwarves as well, though I think it wouldn't hurt to allow both their tower and kingdom under the mountain to benefit from cannon upgrades.

[makazuwr32]

Actually wrecking balls ability can't stack unless it changed just recently because I remember using a wrecking ball 2 days ago.

Also I think that maybe the bone golem could get aoe on its melee attack since it is quite massive.

Oh than it is a bug.

[Alexander82]

@Stratego (dev) can you fix that one? I think you've made that ability.

[makazuwr32]

Can someone check this? is ability of wrecking ball fixed?

[Savra]

I was wondering whether we still wanted that or not, it's been a while but I can fix this real quick.

[makazuwr32]

i mean specifically wrecking ball ability.

[Savra]

That's what I was referring to.

[makazuwr32]

Answered.