PRI#8 Magic barriers

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Stratego (dev)
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PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by Stratego (dev) »

They have no counter - in thin place humans can hold position forever.
Desision: make it destroyable.
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by Stratego (dev) »

makaw:
Magic barriers:
in magic update many races will get spell that reduces vanishing on target summoned unit by -2.
This will work on them as well.
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by Stratego (dev) »

we can not wait for magic update.
we need a quick solution.

(also i feel it more important then pri 8)
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by makazuwr32 »

Not that much. In offence they can't be hidden in battering ram so you can easily kill her and just wait until this barrier will expire.

Also i am planning to add for undeads, orcs and scalefolks purge ability which will be basically anti-vanishing (will decrease vanishing of unit by -2).
I just did not plan to work on magic that soon so it will be solved.

Not that personally i have any issue of dealing with these magic barriers anyway since even orcs have means to get through those — fly around with dragons, jump over with squig riders and uruk berserkers, just kill with range adept and so on.

For elves barriers is not an issue even more due to bets range.
For humans and dwarves same due to great flyers (gryphons via ability can pass through them for example; dwarves have transport zeppelins), exceptional ranged units including ballistas or light cannons and even more exceptional magic on humans (battlemage, their own adepts).
For undeads you can just make it due to skeletons so that enemy just has no place to summon barriers.
For scalefolks it is not a problem as well due to flying saurians and amphibious lizardmen.

Also barriers can't be summoned on forest tiles, mountains and water (it is intended) so units who can pass through those tiles can easily go around.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by Stratego (dev) »

others: is it to be solved somehow now, or OK this way for next 0,5-2 years? :)
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by makazuwr32 »

It will be solved for orcs, undeads and scalefolks while i will work on updating those casters we discussed with savra.
Via that spell "purge".
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by Stratego (dev) »

ok, i asked others if this is good for long time, or shall we make some quick change.
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by Stratego (dev) »

@Jerryqian39 @Aral_Yaren
can you confirm it as a balance problem? or it is not really?
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by Anchar »

What is the maximum distance for installing barriers?
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by Savra »

I think, -1 spell range. Units spell range to be exact.
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by makazuwr32 »

It is +1 to spell range of caster — 4/5/6 in case of adept.

Might reduce it by -1.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by Anchar »

That is, a maximum of 7? If so, what prevents them from being killed by archers in 2 moves? You might as well complain about the endless repair of towers and walls in a narrow area.
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by Anchar »

In my opinion, a very situational ability for the implementation of which you need to make a bunch of magicians and put them in towers, so that archers superior in range and price would not kill them.
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by makazuwr32 »

Anchar wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 7:14 pm That is, a maximum of 7? If so, what prevents them from being killed by archers in 2 moves? You might as well complain about the endless repair of towers and walls in a narrow area.
Current max range is 6.

Alas personally i do not see any problem with barriers, especially since some races are going to get vanishing - spell that will speed up vanishing of units.
It is just that some other players do not know how to even properly counter them in current situation in the first place.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by Vladneral »

Who say that you need put this caster in open field - that weapon of defence. Hide him in tc tower etc. In maps with thin places you can easy block the way and with vanishing 2/3/4 and couldown 3/3/3 you can easy cast them by cd. And enemy cant have a chance move closer.

In Labyrinth map even one adept can easy hold armies - no fly units just nothing can move through. And this adept in tc behind imperial shielder with blessing buff - good luck to kill him from distance - if you not elf you have no any chances against this strategy. Cause fight will be on human conditions - or will not be at all.
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by makazuwr32 »

Vanishing- spell that will reduce vanishing timer on unit with this effect will solve this problem with barriers.
Especially since it will be given to most races anyway (not sure about scalefolks since that race is mainly planned by savra and i am only helping him but humans, orcs, undeads, elves and dwarves will get that).

For orcs, humans and dwarves this spell will be presented on rather costly casters (6 turns cost mage for humans, 8 turns cost ogre mage of savages sub for orcs, 8 turns cost upcoming caster of dwarves) since they are not good at summoning (humans and dwarves alas may get that on different casters as well if sub is about summoning — orcs will not), while elves and undeads will get it on their basic and not too costly casters — apprentice + sorceress of elves and upcoming sculptor of the flesh of undeads (that unit will get flesh golem, flesh homunculus and flesh titan summoning, vanishing +, vanishing - and few spells to empower summons; necromancer will be stripped from those spells and will be given different spell set that also will include several buffs as well (but those buffs will be dangerous) and debuffs).
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by makazuwr32 »

Additional information:
Most summons, unless they are spammable (wolves of elves, dino summon of scalefolks), will get increased vanishing timers so killing summons this way will be a bit harder.

Barriers will not be touched.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by Stratego (dev) »

will solve this problem
on a confirmed problem we can not write future solutions - unless you mean to make it now.


@Jerryqian39 @Aral_Yaren please share your ideas
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by makazuwr32 »

It is worked on right now, yes.

Savra is working on updating casters of orcs right now — jsoning and making images — while i am working on making stats for updating elves and undeads so savra will work on 'em.

For humans we will just give this spell from ogre mage to human mage (once ogre mage is in the game) and that's it.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by Aral_Yaren »

On this my take is to generalize all tier of barrier duration with 2 turn - with 3 turn training they are already relatively easy for such benefit to mass, not counting their disarmor and laser spell that have great casting range by default.
There shall be times... when people across the world shall live in peace and harmony through their various diversities. I shall wait for it, even though it costs my life...
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by makazuwr32 »

Since elves, orcs, undeads, humans and even dwarves will get purge spell that can be casted every turn in similar manner to vanishing+ spell but with opposite effect it will be possible to remove barriers much faster.

So even more nerfing into absolute oblivion this spell i see no reason. If this spell will get purely vanishing 2 than cooldown must be removed. Or otherwise i will add cooldown 5-10 turns to purge spell so it will not be abusable against all summons.

Especially since purge will be empowered in future to decrease vanishing timer at double speed than vanishing+.

So you have 3 options:
1. Keep barriers as they are and get purge spell that will speed up vanishing timer on units with vanishing that can be casted each turn. Against one certain planned ud unit this spell will be actually must have if you do not have proper slowing especially since this unit on one hand will be ridiculously tough and deadly, might even be on par with ettin (not sure here, will look onto balance later) while on other will not have too high vanishing timer and thus purge will work on dealing with it exceptionally.
2. Decrease vanishing on barriers down to 2 turns and remove cooldown so they will be spammable. Purge will still be castable each turn.
3. Make barriers to have vanishing 2, cooldown 3 for all 3 tiers. Purgein this case will get cooldown 5. I would like to see how will you deal in this case with moving barriers (those units will basically be those, but vulnerable) of undeads though. Especially since cd for this unit will be lower than cd on purge in this case.

Reason for this is that other barriers (some of them will be destructible) will also follow similar to human barriers logic:
1st variant — good wall summonable once in a while with increasing vanishing
2nd variant — cheap and spammable wall with low vanishing (they still will have same toughness)
3rd variant — low vanishing walls with good cd

In first and second variant purge with no cd will be fine to have around to deal with these summoned walls and tough summons.
In third variant we will require to separate purge into 2 spells — anti-unit with vanishing and anti-building with vanishing. And anti-building will have looong cooldown.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by Stratego (dev) »

this seems stucked
- can we get to a conclusion some way?
- if anyone has yet responed please ask him to.
- if i am wrong and here is a conclusion somewhere please summarize me

thanks!
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by makazuwr32 »

There is work in progress purge spell for orcs, elves, humans and undeads which will be added along with other changes for existing casters (in most cases).
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by Stratego (dev) »

too late.
it has been almost 1 month and i did nothing
if there is a balance problem we need to make a quick 10minute change in a few hours and publish in next update.

and after when we have the "it will" solutions, we can change back this change.

the goal is: fix the balance problem in ANY way (even with a temporary change)
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by makazuwr32 »

First of all i do not see this as a problem.
Since this is viable only with towers on tight spots.

On open field maps or without towers this is not viable and very easy counterable via going around in first case or via killing adepts with long ranged damage dealer units.

For someone skirmishers being able to one shot any archer of elves is also a problem — but is it in reality?
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: PRI#8 Magic barriers

Post by Stratego (dev) »

@Aral_Yaren
@Jerryqian39

do u see it as balance problem?
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