PRI#5 scaledfolk pelters too strong

[Laxus]

Right now scaledfolk pelters are too strong relative to other races. After upgrades, they have 6 range and can shoot twice while only costing 3 turns. 2 pelters can easily kill any giant in turn under buffs. Compare this to undead which needs 7+ monster defenders to kill draconic heralds and the problem is clear. A quick fix that i can think of is to reduce the number of actions of pelter to 1 and reduce the max range to 5.

[makazuwr32]

@Savra

[Savra]

Most throwers max at range 6, with exception to a few.

A bonus change however may fix the problem.

[Laxus]

here are the slingers stats that i found from map editor:

human veteran slinger:
cost - 2
attack - 12
range - 5
actions - 1

grand dwarven bowslinger:
cost - 3
attack - 14
range - 6
actions - 1

elf slinger:
cost - 2
attack - 9(base attack affected by techs so i do not know max attack)
range - 3 + 3(after range techs)
actions - 1

undead monster defender:
cost - 3
attack - 16 + 3
range - 6
actions - 1


out of all the slingers, only scaledfolk pelters have 2 actions per turn. They can also get up to 110+ attack per hit on giants by using dragon might + aura. undead does not have this option as the max attack of defender can go to 16 + 3(tech) which results in just 76 attack per turn. Human and dwarves can also boost their attack by buffs but not to the extent of scaledfolk. And most importantly, no slinger has 2 actions per turn except scaledfolk. KOing a 6 turn golden giant from a distance of 6 cells in a single turn is too much for a 3 turn unit. This is very imbalanced and so in my opinion pelters should have just 1 action per turn.

[Vladneral]

I think Makazuvr have answered on this issue - his answer:

Giants and slingers:
This is very serious problem since on one hand as you stated here races with auras, buffs and such can kill with their slingers giants too fast.
On other side for races who do not own such buffs — elves, undeads — they are good enough but not too op.
Will look onto this later.
Upd.: with recent addition — fixed numerical bonuses which are not affected by basic attack value — we might actually fix this.
For now we will change bonus for slingers from current +300% down to [+100% and +40]. So even basic slinger will be able to deal 40 minimum damage to giants (not counting armor) while maxed ones will not receive too high extra damage output from auras.
These values are not final and might be changed after testing.

[makazuwr32]

Alright let us calculate effectiveness of this unit with updated bonuses (100% +40 fixed damage) with comparison to other slingers:

Human slinger costs 2 turns, has 6 base attack, 18 maxed and can get +6 attack from maxed captain, +3 from imperial/warfell captains and +8-12 attack via blessing spell. In total you can get 42 attack when maxed. Range 3-7.
For 6 turns in total you get 3 slingers with damage output 124 x3 times.

Elven slinger costs 2 turns, has 9 base attack, 21 maxed and can get +3 attack from elven captain. In total you can get 24 attack when maxed. Range 3-6.
For 6 turns in total you get 3 slingers with damage output 88 x3 times.

Dwarven ballslinger costs 3 turns, has 8 base attack, 20 when maxed, also you must count that he also has rune of agility and rune of chilling steel one of which gives +1 action while other gives slowing and attack reduction for hit unit. Via blessing you can get extra 8-12 attack thus max possible attack is 32. Range 4-8.
For 6 turns you get 2 slingers with damage output 104 x2 times which can be increased once in a while up to 104 x4 times.

Undead slinger costs 3 turns, has 16 attack, +3 via tech and +3 via aura from cemetery butcher for total of 22 attack. Range 6 fixed.
For 6 turns you get 2 slingers with damage output 84 x2 times. I must admit that for undeads slingers are just nice addition and not required unit to have against giants.

Kobold pelter costs 3 turns, has 9 base attack, 2 actions, 18 when maxed and can get +9 attack via dragon might, +3 via draconian captain (i do not remember its full name, sorry), +3 via lizardman captain. Max possible attack is 33.
For 6 turns cost you can get 2 slingers with damage output 106 x4 times.

So in total for 6 turns:
Human — 76 damage without buffs, 124 damage with, x3 times, total damage without buffs is 228, with buffs is 372.
Elf — 82 damage without buffs, 88 with buffs, x3 times, total damage without buffs is 246, with buffs is 264.
Undead — 78 damage without buffs, 84 damage with buffs, x2 times, total damage without buffs is 156, with buffs is 168.
Dwarf — 80 damage without buffs, 104 damage with buffs, x2 times normally and x4 times once per 6 turns, total damage without buffs and without rune of agility is 160, without buffs and with rune of agility is 320, with buffs and without rune of agility is 208, with buffs and with rune of agility is 416.
Scalefolk — 82 damage without buffs, 106 damage with buffs, x4 times, total damage without buffs is 328, with buffs is 424.

As you can see here it is pretty powerful but not too powerful since range 6 is not that good when compared to human 7 range and 8 dwarven range.
Damage output indeed is best but it drops down significantly with death of even 1 unit when compared to humans and elves.
High armor is also big enemy of this unit since it affects its damage output much more than for humans. Disarmor is mandatory to use this unit.
Lastly 46-86 hp with no extra armor and only range 6 is making this unit perfect glass cannon since dealing with 76 hp 9/9-15/15 dwarven bowslinger is much harder due to higher range. I do not mention elven slingers with dodges here.

Lastly to get this unit to those damage outputs you need to spend more time researching techs when compared to humans and dwarves, i am not mentioning undead who has almost perfect stats at base.

[Vladneral]

Elven slinger costs 2 turns, has 9 base attack, 21 maxed and can get +3 attack from elven captain. In total you can get 24 attack when maxed. Range 3-6.
For 6 turns in total you get 3 slingers with damage output 88 x3 times.

Kobold pelter costs 3 turns, has 9 base attack, 2 actions, 18 when maxed and can get +9 attack via dragon might, +3 via draconian captain (i do not remember its full name, sorry), +3 via lizardman captain. Max possible attack is 33.
For 6 turns cost you can get 2 slingers with damage output 106 x4 times.

For elven slinger you forgot about glade keeper aura +2power
So 26 damage from elven slinger ia max

For kobold slinger need to add 3 damage too - scaledfolks throwers get 1power also from throw tech. So it is 36 max base damage from him.

But i think even with new system that too much damage to giants anyway - will think more in the evening

[makazuwr32]

Well we may reduce if needed furthermore numerical bonus down to for example 30.

I do not want to change costs or actual effectiveness of slingers against giants though since for non-orcish races that is only proper unit to counter them.

Ettin, hamletback, Turtlemen and draconian herald all do not have any other particular weakness that can be used against them apart from being giants.

In my opinion it will be better to think about ways to empower giants without making them op than furthermore nerfing their only proper counter unit.

[Laxus]

I must admit that for undeads slingers are just nice addition and not required unit to have against giants.

Right now, for undead it is much better to use sacrifice kill 4 times on a giant than try and rely on monster defenders. However that is a cost of 12 turns total. Another thing to note is that sacrifice kill does not work on tc so if a herald is garrisioned inside a tc, it is almost impossible for undead to capture the tc as it will need 8 shots from defenders(note that you can either train defender or mummies in tc and if you go for mummy, defenders raised through raise dead will not be enough). In my opinion, monster defender needs a buff as even after the changes in bonus, it is clear from your calculation that its damage is too low compared to other races

[makazuwr32]

Ud will get a spell later that buffs every single skeleton unit in wide aoe for good amount of attack — stronger than orc shaman's buff when maxed and combined with human blessing and dragon might.
+40-60 attack to all skeleton units in aoe 3 around caster will make your skeleton army literally god killers. Only flaws are that they will become uncontrollable and unstable (and die when effect ends) and that you need to sacrifice caster along with several extra units in order to complete this spell.
And no exceptions — shooters and throwers also will be affected.

[Laxus]

Ud will get a spell later that buffs every single skeleton unit in wide aoe for good amount of attack — stronger than orc shaman's buff when maxed and combined with human blessing and dragon might.
+40-60 attack to all skeleton units in aoe 3 around caster will make your skeleton army literally god killers. Only flaws are that they will become uncontrollable and unstable (and die when effect ends) and that you need to sacrifice caster along with several extra units in order to complete this spell.
And no exceptions — shooters and throwers also will be affected.

I think this change will happen after the magic update right? This spell is great but until then I suggest increasing the base damage of monster defender by 3(this number may need to be changed) along with the bonus system change so that 6 defenders are required to kill a herald which is reasonable in my opinion.

[makazuwr32]

There is in plans second grade of skeletal power tech for another +3 attack to all skeleton units of undeads.

Probably will be around buildings update along with some changes to siege of ud.

As for ability — not sure. Perfectly to implement is during magic update, yes. But everything else is already ready including images and stats so if needed we can implement sooner.

[Savra]

I just recently updated the bonuses here:

Slingers now have:
100% +40 dmg, to Giants, so basically:
Double they're attack, with an additional +40 to it

[makazuwr32]

Yes i calculated those numbers according to new bonuses already.

[Stratego (dev)]

can someone sumamruize to me and answer this?
"is it a confirmed balance problem atm?"

thanks!