PRI#4 Too strong spearmans, too weak hoplites ACCEPTED_SOLUTION

[Stratego (dev)]

I think we need some rebalance here - most even costly cavalry - 4, 5 turn can be easily one shoot with spearman that have 2 turn cost and hoplites near them looks like the joke. Because of terrain and wagons - foot will have better mobility. So here no sence at all using cavalry in late game.

[Stratego (dev)]

makaw+vlad talkin

Cavalry and anti-cav units relations:
Cavalry in most cases is purely assault unit. It is not supposed to be defencive (with exception of mounted shielders). So receiving from anti-cav units such amounts of damage is fine.
Alas cavalry in future will get extra ways to increase mobility.
When i see cavalry playing as elf - i feel myself pretty safe. Glave dancer can be faster and can destroy two 4turn cavalry units in one turn and that unit cost only 3 turns !
Some elite variants cavalry is good but common variants is a joke already in medium game.
this unit will get slight nerf to bonuses — from 240% variant to 160% variant. Also cavalry as i stated above is purely offencive unit.
They even are planned to get extra movement on roads and up to +3 speed via special charge ability (but only land cav for now).

[Stratego (dev)]

remark: here too: future highlights is not scope here, only the quick change suggestions

[Stratego (dev)]

any quick change sugestions here?

[makazuwr32]

No need any quick changes yet to cavalry, spearmen and halberdiers.
Otherwise cavalry (especially elite) will become unstoppable.

As for hoplites — it is not quick fix but rather planned addition to them.
Give for all hoplite type units next ability (no proper name yet, for sentinel it will be additional ability to his innate one):
Effect lasts for 3 turns, slowing + action reduction lasts for 4 turns, cooldown — 5 turns.
Ability gives "double damage on counter" and "first strike" spec unit actions at cost of -2 speed and -3 actions.

Idea is next:
Get unit into tight spot or capturable building, activate ability and wait for cavalry to suicide against the hoplite.

[Stratego (dev)]

Get unit into tight spot or capturable building, activate ability and wait for cavalry to suicide against the hoplite.

AI will not be that smart, so in most cases we need solutions that AI also can handle.

No need any quick changes

actually we are listeningg here to players,
we can not say "no need change", if they agree this is a balance problem we have to offer a change.
although in general i like if a counter unit is powerful (so spearmen to cavalry)

so others: question: is this balance problem is still a problem? if so what you the suggest to change?

[Stratego (dev)]

@Jerryqian39
@Aral_Yaren

can you confirm the balance problem here?
Vlad says problem Makaw not agreeing currently so please share your thoughts.

[Anchar]

I still didn't understand what the point of the dispute was. What does Vlad want? Increase the damage of Hoplites to equalize it with spearmen? Or reduce the damage of spearmen to increase the importance of cavalry?

[Vladneral]

I think both for make usable all: cavalry hoplites and spearmans.

[Anchar]

What are both options? I think they contradict each other? Or is the translator translating incorrectly again?

[makazuwr32]

First thing first — cavalry is in 90% cases is PURELY offensive unit. You can think about them as melee variant of archers with main role is to deal significant amounts of damage against enemy foot and polearm units as skirmishers.

Sort of glass cannons if you use proper counter against them — spearmen and halberdiers.

Now to current situation "cavalry vs anti-cav units":

A. Non-hoplite polearm units — spearmen, halberdiers, lancers:
1. If we will reduce damage for spearmen than it will make some races way too weak to early game cavalry rushes — elves, dwarves, scalefolks.
2. If we will reduce damage for spearmen than elite cavalry will become completely unstoppable without buildings update for some races (elves, scalefolks for example), especially if you get it rather early. Try to fight against imperial knight when your spearman can't do to it more than 20 damage.
3. Another problem here is too big difference of getting extra attack for different races:
Humans are getting +6 attack via techs and rest of via leveling
Orcs are getting +6 attack via techs and rest of via leveling
Elves are getting +18 attack via techs only
Scalefolks are getting +18 (and more in some cases) attack via techs only
Undeads are getting +3 attack via techs and rest of via leveling
Dwarves are getting +12 attack via techs and rest of via tiers
The problem here is that for units with tiers we can adjust separately additional attack but not in case of techs since techs affect too wide range of units — in case of elves their weapon tech increases attack of: melee swordmen, melee polearm, shooters, throwers and many other various elven units. Changing attack increase via existing techs in this case is out of option since it will weaken way too many units.
4. Ofc we can furthermore increase attack and decrease bonuses but in case of some races (elves, scalefolks) it will result in giving for spearmen and lancers (elves) higher attack than swordmen and for halberdiers even higher damage output which is also not good. Especially since spearmen are supposed to be weaker in direct damage output against non-cavalry enemies when compared to non-polearm melee.
Result: we can't change this part without making major overhauls to techs or even to gameplay itself.

B. Hoplites:
1. They are very tough units, especially when maxed out, for cavalry;
2. If we will give them damage even somewhat comparable without that ability to spearmen than they will become shielders when those were only introduced — RIDICULOUSLY SUPERIOR IN LITERALLY EVERYTHING UNITS when compared to spearmen (to basic units of race in case of shielders — i remember times when shielders had full bonus of normal infantry units + much better attack and armored orcs were steamrolling through every non-orc race) for just +1 turn cost (that is especially not so much in case of dwarves). This will make them way too all round fighters since they would be able to both tank extreme amounts of damage and to deal extreme amounts of damage to cavalry which is not good. It is not what they are supposed to be — they are supposed to be purely defensive units.
But giving them at base first strike and double damage on counter (even via tech — i can't give that as passive) will be too much since than they will become too good counter to already thin cavalry.
Result: we can't change here much with exception of addition planned ability for them.

C. Cavalry.
1. Cavalry is not supposed to tank tons and tons of damage from polearm units.
1.1. Situation here can be compared to "archers vs skirmishers" — 2 turn cost skirmishers can kill very quick any non-giant archer, even 10 turns cost peryton aegis. Should we nerf skirmishers or increase toughness of archers than?
2. In general cavalry (with exception of heavy cavalry units) are purely offensive units. It is not correct to compare them in terms of toughness to shielders, instead compare them to double swordmen, blade dancers and so on.
3. Another problem of changing cavalry is that we also need to change elite cavalry (same case if we will change spearmen).
3.1. This is especially true in case of elves and their mounting.
4. As i stated already cavalry will get furthermore improvements to its speed:
4.1. Light cavalry will get +1 speed on tier 3 (humans, orcs) or via separate tech (elves, scalefolks) for total 7 speed;
4.2. All non-heavy cavalry will get extra speed on roads — 1.43 modifier for normal cavalry and 1.68 for light cavalry;
4.3. All non-heavy cavalry will get tech locked action-free charge ability for furthermore increase in speed (+2 for normal cav and +3 for light cav) and slight increase in attack at cost of no counter spec.
Result: we can't change this part much (not that it requires any changes to attack or toughness anyway since it is offensive unit). Alas cavalry will get more ways to get to enemy or to capture tc without taking damage (roads, extra speed for light cav, charge ability to enhance speed and attack for 1 turn).

D. Overall situation:
1. Cavalry right now is extremely powerful damage dealer category of units and requires proper counter.
2. Spearmen and other polearm are proper counter to cavalry with good damage output against them but being weak against other targets (not so weak already anymore but still somewhat weak).
Result of A, B, C, D: current system with enhance of cavalry in speed will make them viable enough without making them too op. But any other change will require complete overhaul of whole balance, not just "cavalry vs anti-cav units" part (elves, shielders also will be affected by it directly and after that every other unit as well). Even just changing the amount of attack polearm units receive will require at very least either complete rebalance of whole races or addition of new and completely separate tech trees exclusively to polearm units along with problems of balancing that well (it especially will become an issue for tech heavy races — elves, dwarves, humans, scalefolks).
I do not want to work on another upscale-sized change.

[Anchar]

I do not want to work on another upscale-sized change.

Maybe you wouldn't have to if it wasn't for this unnecessary upgrade with the cavalry slowing down in the woods. Why was it needed at all? For "logic"? It just broke everything: and cavalry and scouts who worked well and no one complained about them.

[Anchar]

2. If we will reduce damage for spearmen than elite cavalry will become completely unstoppable without buildings update for some races (elves, scalefolks for example), especially if you get it rather early. Try to fight against imperial knight when your spearman can't do to it more than 20 damage.

Yes, I also believe that an imperial knight in 8 moves and locked behind a faction should not have a chance against a starting spearman in 2 moves.

[makazuwr32]

I meant not basic 2 turn cost spearman but 4 turn cost imperial spearman. Alas without upgrafes but that's possible that it will not be able to deal more than 20 damage in that situation.

I do not want to work on another upscale-sized change.

Maybe you wouldn't have to if it wasn't for this unnecessary upgrade with the cavalry slowing down in the woods. Why was it needed at all? For "logic"? It just broke everything: and cavalry and scouts who worked well and no one complained about them.

That change is required to give infantry sliiiight advantage over cavalry in speed in forest. Alas it was set wrong — it was supposed to slow down cavalry not down to 0.34 from their speed but by 0.34 from their speed so cavalry will still have higher speed in forests. But infantry who has no penalty in forests will be able to hide there and escape from cavalry.

And anyway charge ability for cavalry was planned even prior to upscale, i just increased a bit speed increase than it was planned before. What would you prefer — cavalry with speed 6, charge ability for +1 speed and no penalty in forests (speed 7 only once in 4-8 turns) or cavalry with speed 6-7 (normal cav with speed 6, light cav with speed 7 when maxed), ×1.4-1.6 speed boost on roads but 0.7 speed in forests and charge ability for +2-3 speed (still same debuffs as they are in variant for +1 speed)?

I would prefer second since not every map has excessive amounts of forests and moving through non-forested lands at speed 8-10 (16 on roads for light cavalry under charge abulity and 11 for normal cavalry) is much better for sudden attacks.

[Stratego (dev)]

this seems stucked
- can we get to a conclusion some way?
- if anyone has yet responed please ask him to.
- if i am wrong and here is a conclusion somewhere please summarize me

thanks!

[makazuwr32]

4. As i stated already cavalry will get furthermore improvements to its speed:
4.1. Light cavalry will get +1 speed on tier 3 (humans, orcs) or via separate tech (elves, scalefolks) for total 7 speed (undeads might be affected but dwarves will have max speed 6 for light cav).
4.2. All non-heavy cavalry will get extra speed on roads — 1.43 modifier for normal cavalry and 1.68 for light cavalry;
4.3. All non-heavy cavalry will get tech locked action-free charge ability for furthermore increase in speed (+2 for normal cav and +3 for light cav) and slight increase in attack at cost of no counter spec.
Result: we can't change this part much (not that it requires any changes to attack or toughness anyway since it is offensive unit). Alas cavalry will get more ways to get to enemy or to capture tc without taking damage (roads, extra speed for light cav, charge ability to enhance speed and attack for 1 turn).

[Stratego (dev)]

"will get"

we can not say such in balance topics....


i need a change that i can make in 10 minutes now.

[makazuwr32]

Uhm...
Well 4.2 point you can make here and now.

4.1 and 4.3 you can work on but outside no changes or cavalry will become op.

[Stratego (dev)]

i am not sure how increasing speed will help in one shotted cavalry problem.

but : @Vladneral ?

[makazuwr32]

Uhm but cavalry is supposed to be one shottable (or close to) by polearm units of same type — basic cavalry by basic polearm, elite cavalry by elite polearm. They are not giants vs fairies.

If we make cavalry not one shottable than orcs with cavalry under all possible buffs will shred through literally ANY other race that was not able to place fortifications on its way. Even through dwarves.

Current cavalry is sort of melee archers as i stated above — ridiculously powerful damage dealer units with only actual proper counter being polearm units since you will not be able to stop cavalry with archers or non-polearm melee alone.

[Vladneral]

For me common cavalry is weak but after this thrust ability scout cavalry with buffs have ways to use. Late dwarf scout good also.

But like before i play without common cavalry use after early game expansion. And if i see that my opponent train common cavalry in medium game i always win easily.

Maybe need diferent bonuses for elite and common spearmans.

So maybe make spearmans bonus damage like for slingers. Cause buffed 2 turn spearman could be deadly for 6 turn elite cavalry.

Anyway if you leave cavalry as it is - that not a problem for me cause again - i just play without cavalry.

[makazuwr32]

Well we will rethink a bit bonuses later after implementation of additional speed bonuses for cavalry.

[Stratego (dev)]

so i do this now:

Light cavalry will get +1 speed on tier 3 (humans, orcs) or via separate tech (elves, scalefolks) for total 7 speed (undeads might be affected but dwarves will have max speed 6 for light cav).

[Stratego (dev)]

wait lv3 orc scout and lv 3 human light cav have speed 7 already - you mean to put 8 there ?

[makazuwr32]

Wait if they have it than it is not required.

[Stratego (dev)]

so from these what i should do?

Light cavalry will get +1 speed on tier 3 (humans, orcs) or via separate tech (elves, scalefolks) for total 7 speed (undeads might be affected but dwarves will have max speed 6 for light cav).