Too many techs to unlock next unit upgrade levels IMPLEMENTED

[Stratego (dev)]

I just faced that we have tons of techs to step to next upgrade level of units (i mean like "normal xxx" -> armored xxx" -> "golden xxx")
however many of those techs should only be attribute changer techs, not upgrading techs:

here is an example:
siege zeppelin: "trnRevokerTechs":{"unitTypes":[
"TECH_DWARF_IMPROVED_MECHANICS_1",
"TECH_DWARF_ALLOY_PLATING_2",
"TECH_DWARF_IMPROVED_BARRELS_1",
"TECH_DWARF_EXTRA_ROOM_1",
"TECH_DWARF_HEAVY_CANNONS_1",
"TECH_DWARF_IMPROVED_GUNPOWDER_1",
"TECH_DWARF_IMPROVED_ENGINES_1"
]},
we have too many techs to step to next level, this is discouraging to players imho to have these many techs to get to have a unit upgraded.
IN GENERAL: I think maximum 3 techs is the most it should be. please try avoid more than 3 upgrade requirements.

-------------------
also on above example from the many tech i believe many should only be attribute changing techs not upgrading ones:
for instance:
1. TECH_DWARF_EXTRA_ROOM_1: this should not be upgrade but simply a tech givind extra room (carry capacity +1 for instance) -> attribute changing tech
2. TECH_DWARF_HEAVY_CANNONS_1: not sure about this but this should only give more damage like +1 power or something / or only unlock an ability on unit -> attribute changing tech
3. TECH_DWARF_ALLOY_PLATING_2: this too only should give extra armor or something - not being unlocker techs -> attribute changing tech

so from the other side i think unlocking next level of zeppelin should be like
TECH_DWARF_IMPROVED_MECHANICS_1 + TECH_DWARF_IMPROVED_ENGINES_1 and maybe + TECH_DWARF_IMPROVED_GUNPOWDER_1

all others should be only property modifier techs on zeppelins.
or unlocking techs like the flight + cannoneering.

so in total the tech types i can imagine:
upgrading techs (MAX 3):
TECH_DWARF_IMPROVED_MECHANICS_1 + TECH_DWARF_IMPROVED_ENGINES_1 and maybe + TECH_DWARF_IMPROVED_GUNPOWDER_1
attribute changing techs (not upgrade one - so not being in revoker techs list)
"TECH_DWARF_ALLOY_PLATING_2", "TECH_DWARF_IMPROVED_BARRELS_1", "TECH_DWARF_EXTRA_ROOM_1", "TECH_DWARF_HEAVY_CANNONS_1",
unlocking an ability tech
<in current example idk which can be such but in general we can have have a tech only unlock an ability - and not being an upgrade requirement.>
unlocking the whole unit genre tech
<in this example the TECH_FLIGHT and TECH_CANNONEERING techs can be requirement only techs - so like Gunpowder in AOS for gunpowder-siege units>


This approach i wrote are true for all alternatives

tell me your thoughts.

[makazuwr32]

The thing is that most techs also improve stats of unit.
And they affect different units.
Alloy plating, extra room and heavy cannons tech will not be removed from leveling requirement. Especially because humans also use completely same leveling system.

As for zeppelins specifically — they are extremly powerful units and because if we will reduce amount of techs required to level up we need to increase their cost instead. Up to 12 and 16 turns.

Another reason why we will not use this is because similar system to level up is used for human and dwarven other units.
For example to level up dwarven shielder you need:
Tier 1 and 2 dwarven melee tech
Tier 1 and 2 dwarven armor tech
Tier 1 and 2 dwarven shield tech
Dwarven infantry tech

Dwarven cleric in addition to that also will require 1 tier of both holy units techs so in total 6 techs to level up.

3 techs to level up such exceptionally awesome unit as any of dwarven zeppelins is as if you would be able to level up ettin in tc via 1 tech for 2 and 3 turns.

Unlock an ability tech is used a lot in aof though — dwarven runes for example.

Unlocking bunch of units also is used — flight tech, siege tech, ents tech and embassies.

[makazuwr32]

In current aof leveling system for humans and dwarves we follow next formula:
To upgrade unit firstly you need to upgrade all its equipment.
In case of ship for example it will be sails/engine, carry capacity (if it has any at base), attack equipment (ramming or shooting).
In case of warmage it is sword, armor, arcane range, arcane power.

You need to get better equipment (all of it) in order to level up.

Regarding alloy plating for zeppelin:
If you will agree that unit will get extra miss chance (+5-15% per tier) than i can agree. Or if it will have chance to suddenly self destruct (or just to deal to self some damage on normal attack) because of insufficient plating that can not harness increased amount of gunpowder.

[makazuwr32]

siege zeppelin: "trnRevokerTechs":{"unitTypes":[
"TECH_DWARF_IMPROVED_MECHANICS_1",
"TECH_DWARF_ALLOY_PLATING_2",
"TECH_DWARF_IMPROVED_BARRELS_1",
"TECH_DWARF_EXTRA_ROOM_1",
"TECH_DWARF_HEAVY_CANNONS_1",
"TECH_DWARF_IMPROVED_GUNPOWDER_1",
"TECH_DWARF_IMPROVED_ENGINES_1"
]},

First tech is general leveling tech.
Alloy plating gives armor. Must be required since it also improves cannons to withstand damage to cannon itself from gunpowder when shooting.
Improved barrels gives extra attack. Also gives extra attack to all dwarven gunpowder shooters.
Improved gunpowder gives extra attack. But this one limited to only cannons.
Heavy cannons gives extra range. Here we follow same route as humans — they both have separated attack tech and range tech for ranged siege.
Extra room gives extra carry capacity. This zeppelin has base carry cap so it is required. Especially because units inside it can act as in tower.
Engine gives extra speed. Required to carry all this increased weight from other techs.

[Stratego (dev)]

To upgrade unit firstly you need to upgrade all its equipment

exactly that is what is am saying is not good.
if that result in more than 3 techs than it is not good.
if these are only 3 techs than is is good.

that is why i opened this topic, it is nightmare now upgrading anything, we should make it less requirement by moving some to simply add extra +1 or +2 attack or armor to units instead of being requirement.

asi wrote above on zeppelin.

also 16 turns techs also not good, anything (training, inventing tech) more than 10 turns also a pain in this turn based game so the upper limit should be about 10 in costs (only VERY exceptional cases more in whole game like "Tie fighter" so something ultra irregular)

-------------
so as a sum please dont make more then 3 tech requirement if possible, if not please email me why not and might be able to suggest how to.

[makazuwr32]

The whole balance of these factions — humans, dwarves — is based on this.
If we will change it than unit costs will go up. For example human catapult ship cost will increase from current 8 turns up to 12-18.

Some really powerful units have rather cheap cost ONLY BECAUSE they neex lots of techs to level up.

In case of that zeppelin above we have 3 options:
1. Current leveling system and 12 turns cost
2. Significant stats drop (cut in half at least) but 3 techs to level up yes!
3. Significant cost increase if no stats change (up to 16-20 turns!) but 3 techs to level up yes!

Also i have a question.
Dwarves already require for any of their infantry to level up at least 4 techs: armor 1, armor 2, infantry tech and weapon tech (shooting tech for crossbowmen, extra barrels tech for gunpowder shooters, extra throwing tech for throwers, 2 tiers of melee tech for melee units without shield).
Should we also decrease for them as well required amount of techs to level up?

If yes than dwarves MUST LOOSE their gold and gem mines.
Their overall stats also will drop below humans.

[makazuwr32]

Right.
Option 4 is to increase cost of all required for leveling techs up to astronomical amounts (for example for dwraven case it will be from 6/8 turns mechanic tech up to 14/22 at least if not higher if we will not change units) to compensate loss of non-used techs to level up.

I must remind that most of leveling techs ALREADY provide extra stats to units on their own and leveling is an extra.

[Savra]

I think it would just be better to have units require the necessary and sensible techs to level:
Battle Zeppelin:
Alloy plating
Improved mechanics (tier tech for mechanical)
Improved siege equipment (tier tech for cannons)
Improved engines


This should be fine, as they make more sense, damage, range, carry cap, etc, don't need to be required.

[Savra]

So basically, for some units it will likely be 4 techs, while others have mostly 2-3.

Which would set them up as leveling up about as fast as orcs do roughly.

[Puss_in_Boots]

I think it would be easier if players had all those techs for free from the beginning rather than buying them from the store as upgrades.

[Stratego (dev)]

So basically, for some units it will likely be 4 techs, while others have mostly 2-3.

Which would set them up as leveling up about as fast as orcs do roughly.

we can talk about 4 techs in extremely RARE cases, but in general 2-3 sounds very good !

[Stratego (dev)]

I think it would be easier if players had all those techs for free from the beginning rather than buying them from the store as upgrades.

this is a little off topic here,
what is gem-buying-upgrade or what is default is not related here,
please open new topic with the suggestion - we can talk about those too but in another topic.

thanks!

[Savra]

If we go by the logic I suggested, then it would look more like this:

Zeppelin:
Alloy plating 2-4
Improved engines 1-2
Improved mechanics 1-2
Improved siege equipment 1-2


Heavy cannon:
Alloy plating 2-4
Improved siege equipment 1-2
Cannon wheels 1-2

Dwarf maceman:
Hardy infantry 1-2
Armours 2-4

Dwarf warrior:
Hardy infantry 1-2
Armours 2-4
Shields 2-4

Human militia:
Veteran infantry 1-2
Armours 1-2

Human warrior:
Veteran infantry 1-2
Armours 1-2
Shields 1-2

Also this will make it easier for the ai to upgrade there units also.

[Savra]

Also there wouldn't be a need to upgrade all tech costs cause they still upgrade about as fast as orcs would for example who require 2 techs to upgrade 1 basic unit, in roughly the same amount of time.

[makazuwr32]

And what about human trebuchet?
And catapult ship?

Also i think that attack also must be put as requirement for them to upgrade. Even visually they also upgrade their weapons.

What about warmage?

What techs must be used to upgrade for pure casters than? Purely armor and infantry/cavalry? It than will make them superior when compared to orcs since they need MORE techs to upgrade their caster in this case.

Also still this will result in requirement to downgrade stats for airfleet of dwarves since otherwise due to getting lots of stats (especially war zeppelin) they would become much more op than ettins under all buffs against wolfs of elves.

[makazuwr32]

Another problem i see is balance of fast leveling against races who have no tiers like elves or scalefolks.
Since leveling also provides free boost to hp, attack for all and range for ranged units making it cheaper without changes to elves and scalefolks makes them in disadvantage.
And if we will touch them than orcs will be in disadvantage.

[Savra]

If zeppelins require a debuf that's fine, the coptors however will be fine as they are since they don't actually do much vs infantry of others.

As for trebuchet of humans:
Improved siege 1-2
Wheels 1-2 (we'll make another)
Metal plating 1-2

Catapult ship:
Improved siege 1-2
Improved ships 1-2
Improved sailing 1-2
Metal plating 1-2

[Savra]

We could increase the cost of humans siege upgrades by 1-2 levels.

[Savra]

Another problem i see is balance of fast leveling against races who have no tiers like elves or scalefolks.
Since leveling also provides free boost to hp, attack for all and range for ranged units making it cheaper without changes to elves and scalefolks makes them in disadvantage.
And if we will touch them than orcs will be in disadvantage.

Not necessarily, as elves and scaledfolks can get there's much faster, compared to humans and dwarves, elves for example have cheaper techs.

[Savra]

Scaledfolks also have rather cheap techs, anyway as for orcs, they honestly just need more units, as they're almost at the same level as scaledfolks. (If not a bit less actually)

[Savra]

Also orcs produce units surprisingly fast if they get the chance, so they aren't so bad off, but a bit more new options might help them in the long run in dealing with these issues.

[Savra]

If zeppelins require a debuf that's fine, the coptors however will be fine as they are since they don't actually do much vs infantry of others.

As for trebuchet of humans:
Improved siege 1-2
Wheels 1-2 (we'll make another)
Metal plating 1-2

Catapult ship:
Improved siege 1-2
Improved ships 1-2
Improved sailing 1-2
Metal plating 1-2

Actually, better yet @makazuwr32, we could give humans one more tech for some of there siege equipment called mathematics that could effect things like trebuchet.


Also mages would require probably spell power and spell range techs (none of which are increased when they level so that would be fine for them)

[makazuwr32]

Elves do not have cheaper techs.
They have roughly same cost techs.
Yes elves have cheap tier 1 dodges (3 turns) but that compensates with 7 turn cost tier 3 dodges.

Another problem i see is balance of fast leveling against races who have no tiers like elves or scalefolks.
Since leveling also provides free boost to hp, attack for all and range for ranged units making it cheaper without changes to elves and scalefolks makes them in disadvantage.
And if we will touch them than orcs will be in disadvantage.

Not necessarily, as elves and scaledfolks can get there's much faster, compared to humans and dwarves, elves for example have cheaper techs.

And about that this exactly is a problem.
Since humans and dwarves upgrade whole army unlike orcs who upgrade each sub separately.

To get extra range and attack as well extra dodges (i count at least melee and ranged) tier 1 only elves need 4+4+3+3+3=17 turns.
Humans if we will follow your formula than 4 turns for armor and 6 turns for militia tech. If you want to joke than you also can speed up this via money couriers down to 4 turns in total. For same output if not better.
And that will affect all unshieled units of humans. Including casters if arcane and holy trchs are not required.

Units affected by that simple combination — armor + infantry leveling — are:
All casters — priest, adept, mage, warmage, archer, longbowman, fire archer, poison archer, militia, double swordman... If add shield than all foot units can be upgraded to next tier in matter of 14 total turns cost.
2 buildings only you need to level up.

Compare that to orcs:
I will count only infantry units (even without giants) and without merlocks.
To level up all of them you need to research:
Orc leveling 6 turns, goblin leveling 6 turns, troll leveling 6 turns. If you need casters than extra you need 2 more techs for 4 turns i think each.
And ofc infantry tech.
In total you need 5 buildings and 26-34 turns. More rhan double!!!

Compare that (but in this case i will count without casters but with giants and cavalry for orcs and with cavalry and without any variants of casters for humans) to current system:
Currently orcs need in total to upgrade to tier 1 all their units mentioned above (i do not count unlocking techs or researching extra techs) 18 turns in total racial and 12 turns equipment or 30 total turns.
Currently humans need 16 turns for blacksmith (melee, shooters/throwers, armor, shield) and 12 turns for cavalry/infantry tech or 28 total turns.
And you suggest to decrease this by 50%?

I am against this balance wise.

IF YOU INSIST TO GO THIS WAY THAN WE MUST REBALANCE THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[makazuwr32]

Also orcs produce units surprisingly fast if they get the chance, so they aren't so bad off, but a bit more new options might help them in the long run in dealing with these issues.

That is what their main power must be alas.

[makazuwr32]

If you still will insist on such change than without me. I will quit development of aof since it will take at least month if not more for me to simply rebalance all this stuff properly. And i do not want to change things which are working quite well for the sake of simplicity.

A month of rebalance which i can spend onto planning other units or working on balancing and bug seaching and fixing.

[makazuwr32]

After some thought i found next formula for a minimum requirement to level up units that i can agree on:

1. Alive non-caster (any forms of, warmages also are excluded) units (and not so if we will add some): attack techs, armor techs, shield techs (if has any) and infantry/cavalry/special mounts/etc or any combination of must be a minimum for them (for example if unit will have transformation between foot form and mounted on special mount for humans than it must require all 3 techs to level up).

2. Alive pure caster units (and not so if we will add some): armor techs, spell power techs, spell range techs and infantry/cavalry/special mounts/etc or any combination of as a minimum.

2.1. Alive fighter caster units (and not so; warmage, mounted templar, valkyrie will fall into this category): all blackmsith techs are a must as requirement to level up so at least they must level up as normal alive fighter units; i also would prefer to make spell power and spell range as requirement to level up them but this one is for discussion when we will work on magic update.

3. Any transports without any fighting properties specifically with tiers must have armor, carry capacity and corresponding leveling tech as requirement to tier up.

4. Mechanical units and ships will follow same rule as alive units but with extra — they will not require carry capacity techs unless they are transport units and any speed techs to level up. Ofc i must remind that they have their own leveling techs for different categories (humans have for example ships and siege, catapult ship rewuires both), separate from normal alive (and not so if we will add any (undead units or elementals who will be separated from undead, mechanical and alive units into own category)) units' techs.

______________________________________________________

Personal comment:

I agree that some mechanical units (including some planned units) require too many techs to level up — ballista for example. Why do i need to research wheel tech?

Apart from removing from requirement to tier up carry capacity techs for non-transport mechanical/ship units and speed up techs for all mechanical/ship units (and some very specific techs like power range tech for catapult) everything else must be required though to tier up them which is required right now — attack techs, armor techs, range techs for ranged units, leveling techs (multiple if unit falls down for several types). This part of leveling mechanical units specifically is out of discussion.

We might at most reduce amount of techs in total by combining some or removing some techs to make other giving higher bonus. Removing carry capacity techs for non-transport mechanical units and speed techs for all mechanical units is fine as well. This is fine to discuss.

But in case of non-mechanical units it is different — they are mostly fine and totally balanced around elves and scalefolks who need to compare to them require lots of techs to research from different tech trees and if we will simply reduce required amount of techs for leveling them for humans/dwarves than they will get huge advantage over elves and scalefolks which we must compensate (how by the way?). This is out of discussion.

We do not have lots of caster fighter units and they do not play that insanely important role anyway so it is fine to reduce for them for now required techs to tier up. This is fine to discuss alas since in many cases it is multipurpose unit i prefer for them to require some more effort to tier up.

Also i do not see any reason why casters (especially adept who with tiers gets better and better barrier summon) must not require their spell power and spell range techs as requirement to tier up. This is out of discussion.

[Stratego (dev)]

If we go by the logic I suggested, then it would look more like this:

Zeppelin:
Alloy plating 2-4
Improved engines 1-2
Improved mechanics 1-2
Improved siege equipment 1-2


Heavy cannon:
Alloy plating 2-4
Improved siege equipment 1-2
Cannon wheels 1-2

Dwarf maceman:
Hardy infantry 1-2
Armours 2-4

Dwarf warrior:
Hardy infantry 1-2
Armours 2-4
Shields 2-4

Human militia:
Veteran infantry 1-2
Armours 1-2

Human warrior:
Veteran infantry 1-2
Armours 1-2
Shields 1-2

Also this will make it easier for the ai to upgrade there units also.

I like it!
i would also remove that alloy plating - sounds like a +1 armor thing only but ikd what it gives now.

[Stratego (dev)]

After some thought i found next formula for a minimum requirement to level up units that i can agree on:

1. Alive non-caster (any forms of, warmages also are excluded) units (and not so if we will add some): attack techs, armor techs, shield techs (if has any) and infantry/cavalry/special mounts/etc or any combination of must be a minimum for them (for example if unit will have transformation between foot form and mounted on special mount for humans than it must require all 3 techs to level up).

2. Alive pure caster units (and not so if we will add some): armor techs, spell power techs, spell range techs and infantry/cavalry/special mounts/etc or any combination of as a minimum.

2.1. Alive fighter caster units (and not so; warmage, mounted templar, valkyrie will fall into this category): all blackmsith techs are a must as requirement to level up so at least they must level up as normal alive fighter units; i also would prefer to make spell power and spell range as requirement to level up them but this one is for discussion when we will work on magic update.

3. Any transports without any fighting properties specifically with tiers must have armor, carry capacity and corresponding leveling tech as requirement to tier up.

4. Mechanical units and ships will follow same rule as alive units but with extra — they will not require carry capacity techs unless they are transport units and any speed techs to level up. Ofc i must remind that they have their own leveling techs for different categories (humans have for example ships and siege, catapult ship rewuires both), separate from normal alive (and not so if we will add any (undead units or elementals who will be separated from undead, mechanical and alive units into own category)) units' techs.

I am not sure i understand what you write above (you list many things but some of those are in OR relation i assume) - but if you found a way to have 3 techs max as upgrade requirement than i like it!

just stumbled into transports: for transports i suggest only ONE tech (you call it leveling tech) as easy to reach better/stronger transportation will make gameflow better and faster (i mean speed vise tru the bigger maps). So i would not use carry capacity and armor. those can simply be +1 armor and +1 carry capacity techs, not level up/upgrade ones. my 5cents

also i feel only dwarves (scaleds too?) brought these many techs, as Makaw said in email or above that eg. orcs have already under 3 tech requirement (mostly 2-3). so only the new dwarves are the problem i assume (?).

[makazuwr32]

No i did not find.

For most units we will not change anything.
For human shielder for example it will still be a requirement to research shield, sword, armor and infantry tech to level up. For dwarven shielder same but shield tier 1, shield tier 2, melee weapon tier 1, melee weapon tier 2, armor tier 1, armor tier 2 and infantry tech.

That part is not for discussion — that is HOW THE RACES WERE PLANNED.
If this part will be changed than it is not good for balance.

For dwarves it is their way of leveling and we will not change it. Do not even dream about changing it fo orc-like rushing techs style.
It is like as if you would ask to add for elves and scalefolks as well as for non-skeleton undeads tiers. It will not happen.

For leveling you will need for any non-caster unit next techs:
1. Attack tech, half of tech tree (1 tech for humans, 2 techs for melee dwarves, 1 tech for crossbow dwarves, 2 techs for gunner dwarves and thrower dwarves)
2. Armor tech, half of tech tree (1 tech for humans, 2 techs for dwarves)
2.1. For alive units shield tech if unit has shield, half of tech tree (1 tech for humans, 2 techs for dwarves)
3. Leveling tech (multiple if unit fits for several categories - for example if it can dismount and mount than it must have as leveling requirement both cavalry and infantry tech)

In total for normal non-shielded units humans will need 3 techs, for shielded units 4 techs.
Dwarves will need for normal non-shielded units 5 techs (4 for crossbowmen) and 7 techs for shielded units.

Speed techs and carry capacity techs will be excluded from requirement to level up.
I also am thinking to increase carry cap techs cost and speed techs cost.

*"half of tech tree" means that if tech tree for attack for example has 4 techs than to level up you need 2 techs; if 2 techs than 1, if 10 techs than 5 and so on.

For pure casters you will need:
1. Armor tech, half of tech tree
2. Spell power tech
3. Spell range tech
4. Leveling tech

In total for normal caster units humans will need 4 techs.
Dwarves will need for normal caster units 5 techs.

About transports: but they have only 3 techs apart from generic leveling tech that affects them — carry capacity, speed+ and armor. Speed will be excluded to level up anything — it will become extra tech. So you ask to provide free leveling for transports with 1 tech that gives nothing but extra hp? Not happening. Armor and carry cap for sure will stay as requirement.

For transports specifically leveling requirements:
1. Armor tech, half of tech tree
2. Carry capacity tech, half of tech tree
3. Leveling tech.

Hopefully this discussion is closed.

P. S. Do no ask to change requirement to level up dwarves down to 2-3 techs per tier! They are balanced to have costly leveling! That is what this race about!!! Complete opposite of rushing and crushing orcs!!!!!

P. P. S. In general aof suggests different gameplay styles per different races. You suggest for dwarves and humans (my personal opinion though) to behave like "orc stupid. Orc rush! ORC SMASH!!!" gameplay style. This is not going to happen.
Every race must have its own speed to level up and own speed to research techs. If you do not like slow leveling for humans and dwarves than play for orcs — they are the most simple race.

[makazuwr32]

We will rework some techs of humans and dwarves in future for their siege though that those will become extra techs to provide attack and will be excluded from leveling requirement.

So for current war zeppelin leveling requirement will come down from:
Alloy plating 1, alloy plating 2
Engine 1
Extra room 1
Barrels 1
Gunpowder 1
Heavy cannons 1
Improved mechanics 1

Down to:
Alloy plating 1, alloy plating 2
Heavy cannons 1
Improved mechanics 1

Barrels tech will be completely excluded from affecting it and any siege of dwarves.
Gunpowder tech will provide an extra attack boost that is not required to level up.
Engine tech and carry capacity tech will be excluded from leveling requirement.