Too many techs to unlock next unit upgrade levels IMPLEMENTED

[Stratego (dev)]

Look, i feel, more: i KNOW it is discouraging to palyers having that many techs as requirement.
those need to change.

if dwarves are the most extreme, by "design" than that design maybe seemed good on papaer, in practice it is a pain.
We need to change that - dwarves are still in UC so no problem with that.

If you want them be slower you can
- you have now (i write random numbers) these tecs and costs: 3+4+2+3+4+2+3 as techs costs lets say: 21 turns.
- you can set instead i say to have them as requirement: 6+6+9 turn techs instead. same turns, same slow but only 3 techs

so multiple techs more than about 3 is not an option, simply think of that "by engine" it is not possible to have more techs, think of it as a unquestionable restriction by engine.

[Stratego (dev)]

also i have new idea:
we still missing ERA techs in this game, maybe dwarf should have that.

so making a costy ERA tech to level up the units,
- it can cost more than 10 maybe 12? or 14?
- it can also have pre-requirement to start era techs, eg. kind of buildings to be built or other techs to be invented (not many in numbers! eg. max 3?)
- it also can have a building to invent, so not in TC maybe - this also a slowing option
- if he invented the new era AFTER he can start invent the actual level up tech of that unit kind (eg. 2nd level infantry tech)
- this would help in the large buildlists too - as many units will not be visible that are only later era units.
- as a result you have the slowness on dwarf you planned
- you have the race "differences"/diversity as (for start) only dwarfs have ERA techs for themselves (maybe later another race can have too)
- dwarf still in UC so no problem that we change a little.

what do u think? Savra, Makaw?

[Stratego (dev)]

You wrote above to me to not play dwaves? no... i want these games to be good for everyone not only some little fraction of players - i have a gut feeling what the mass of people like, hard to prove though...

So a race i feel it is not good to play is not a good race in these games...

i am flexible in gaming, i like many things, but i have a gut feeling about how good is "simplicity" and how cautious we should be if we put in "complexity" - i said it many times, the simple is better, the complexity must not come into face of any new player chosing eg. dwarves accidentally.
If we place complexity than we should be cautious and that should be later in game (eg. later era) or as an optional way (that subs can give maybe, and other optional techs and units).

[Stratego (dev)]

i inserted +1 line in ERA tech idea

[makazuwr32]

also i have new idea:
we still missing ERA techs in this game, maybe dwarf should have that.

so making a costy ERA tech to level up the units,
- it can cost more than 10 maybe 12? or 14?
- it can also have pre-requirement to start era techs, eg. kind of buildings to be built or other techs to be invented (not many in numbers! eg. max 3?)
- it also can have a building to invent, so not in TC maybe - this also a slowing option
- if he invented the new era AFTER he can start invent the actual level up tech of that unit kind (eg. 2nd level infantry tech)
- this would help in the large buildlists too - as many units will not be visible that are only later era units.
- as a result you have the slowness on dwarf you planned
- you have the race "differences"/diversity as (for start) only dwarfs have ERA techs for themselves (maybe later another race can have too)
- dwarf still in UC so no problem that we change a little.

what do u think? Savra, Makaw?

First thing first we do not have units whom we can lock behind "ERA" techs who are in base race.
That is how we planned dwarves. Not at base anyway — they usually are already locked behind embassy.

Era tech(s) i fear will only make things for dwarves worse instead of better. If i understand right how it works...
Need an example to actually see how it works though.

We have only units who are locked behind some techs (and they already are locked).

I already agreed to reduce amount of techs required to level up — here:

We will rework some techs of humans and dwarves in future for their siege though that those will become extra techs to provide attack and will be excluded from leveling requirement.

So for current war zeppelin leveling requirement will come down from:
Alloy plating 1, alloy plating 2
Engine 1
Extra room 1
Barrels 1
Gunpowder 1
Heavy cannons 1
Improved mechanics 1

Down to:
Alloy plating 1, alloy plating 2
Heavy cannons 1
Improved mechanics 1

Barrels tech will be completely excluded from affecting it and any siege of dwarves.
Gunpowder tech will provide an extra attack boost that is not required to level up.
Engine tech and carry capacity tech will be excluded from leveling requirement.

Also can't you say that sort of era techs are embassy techs? Aren't they?
I do not understand difference between the 2.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok in email i tell you what are era techs as we speak in 2 threads already (here and email)

[Stratego (dev)]

ok so far this is the first suggestion to move forward the max 3 limit

If we go by the logic I suggested, then it would look more like this:

Zeppelin:
Alloy plating 2-4
Improved engines 1-2
Improved mechanics 1-2
Improved siege equipment 1-2


Heavy cannon:
Alloy plating 2-4
Improved siege equipment 1-2
Cannon wheels 1-2

Dwarf maceman:
Hardy infantry 1-2
Armours 2-4

Dwarf warrior:
Hardy infantry 1-2
Armours 2-4
Shields 2-4

Human militia:
Veteran infantry 1-2
Armours 1-2

Human warrior:
Veteran infantry 1-2
Armours 1-2
Shields 1-2

i like it, however what are the 2-4 and 1-2 signs?
are these mean that you need to invent more than one of that tech at once? eg: "Armours 2-4" means you need to invent 2 tecs? like the dwarf warrior:
Dwarf warrior:
Hardy infantry 1
Armours 1
Armours 2
Shields 1
Shields 2

so technically 5 techs?

[makazuwr32]

Yes it is.
Also i still disagree with this idea.

I will think how to solve this but please at least increase limit up to 4 techs for normal units and 5 for costly and powerful ones.

3 techs to level up some units will result in almost free leveling. Especially because techs for leveling already in most cases one way or another you need to research for extra stats.

[Stratego (dev)]

Yes it is.
Also i still disagree with this idea.

I will think how to solve this but please at least increase limit up to 4 techs for normal units and 5 for costly and powerful ones.

3 techs to level up some units will result in almost free leveling.

To be honest 3 is already too much, i just let 3 because
a) AOF seemingly using this on many races.
b) also because the extra techs (beside the normal "level up" tech) are giving something also like +1 armor or something.

so max 3 is "good" (i mean not literally good - but can be lived with it)
and based on your answer is see that the dwarf warrior example in savra example is not 3 techs but 5 techs - so that is not yet good (but it can be argued - others what u think? Savra?) - we need max 3 techs. So player need to hassle with only max 3 techs to get a level up.

3 techs to level up some units will result in almost free leveling

why?
- we can increase tech cost,
- we can have era techs,
- we can ahve special building where the level up can happen
we have many many many many many options.

at first maybe we can increase only the base tech the "level up warriors" like tech - this is the simplest way
however i see eg. in "dwarf infantry level up" case they already have big cost 6 and 8, but maybe it can be 8 and 9
remark: remember costs are not linear in these games - so 3+3+3 turncost is not equivalent to one 9 turn cost tech - as 9 turns practically feels like about 10-11 turns, as the 3+3+3 case (1) you have option to switch production, (2) you can already use the first 3 cost tech/unit for 6 extra turns (3) and so on. so not linear

[makazuwr32]

I just do not want to go the way when we need to make lots and lots and lots of tech to level up for example specifically battle and war zeppelin (and that is where currently discussion goes since i can't simply increase cost of any techs which affect those because they also are affecting other units: making those units — for example gyrocopters and cannons) to cost more to level up is not good).

Another problem why we have lots of techs as requirement to level up is because
1. These techs are shared among wide range of units;
2. With one set of same techs (alas amount of techs to level up is higher) you can level up a much-much-much wider set of units than orcs.

And we do not want to go aos way of leveling when every single unit has its own leveling tech (for humans it will mean to make at least 30 extra techs).

[Stratego (dev)]

I just do not want to go the way when we need to make lots and lots and lots of tech to level up for example specifically battle and war zeppelin (and that is where currently discussion goes since i can't simply increase cost of any techs which affect those because they also are affecting other units: making those units — for example gyrocopters and cannons) to cost more to level up is not good).

than zeppoelin needs its separate level up tech, if zeppelins is THAT op than it deserves its unique tech (eg. for all zeppelins) - and maybe that case we can have only that one costy tech be the requirement (naturally can have 2 extra if i u very want)

Another problem why we have lots of techs as requirement to level up is because
1. These techs are shared among wide range of units;
2. With one set of same techs (alas amount of techs to level up is higher) you can level up a much-much-much wider set of units than orcs.

And we do not want to go aos way of leveling when every single unit has its own leveling tech (for humans it will mean to make at least 30 extra techs).

good points, but i think not the many tech rewuirement is the good solution but:
1. "These techs are shared among wide range of units": reduce the affected units, eg. cut in half not use "level up infantry" but use "level up polearm infantry" tech that only affect polearms. much better strategic vise too - if player want to make hard poearms than he does not want any other being upgradeed. - so this way would be BETTER i mean MUCH better!

2. you can level up a much-much-much wider set of units than orcs: not good, i think that is totally wrong way - a player does not want upgrade everything - in a game you have a situation and you only want to upgrade this or that UNIT types, eg. you want stronger archers than only archer - you dont need other infantry being upgraded so that is "useless" for you in that situation. this is better strategic option than upgradein 30 unit types at once for insane costs or insane amount of techs.

maybe you are right: this is the root of the problems: TOO MANY units are upgraded now with only level up.

so i think best approach would be
- less units to upgrade with one upgrade set (eg ingfantry splitted to eg.: polearm, sword, axe, thrower?, archer (are these also in infantry?))
- also techs
a) mostly only 1 level up tech to upgrade them (a costy one for eg. "Hardy Polearm infantry")
b) or having multiple techs if desired (one level up tech like "Hardy Polearm infantry", and some blacksmith techs like "+1 armor +1 arrack techs") - but max 3 in total

[makazuwr32]

Another problem why we have lots of techs as requirement to level up is because
1. These techs are shared among wide range of units;
2. With one set of same techs (alas amount of techs to level up is higher) you can level up a much-much-much wider set of units than orcs.

And we do not want to go aos way of leveling when every single unit has its own leveling tech (for humans it will mean to make at least 30 extra techs).

good points, but i think not the many tech rewuirement is the good solution but:
1. "These techs are shared among wide range of units": reduce the affected units, eg. cut in half not use "level up infantry" but use "level up polearm infantry" tech that only affect polearms. much better strategic vise too - if player want to make hard poearms than he does not want any other being upgradeed. - so this way would be BETTER i mean MUCH better!

2. you can level up a much-much-much wider set of units than orcs: not good, i think that is totally wrong way - a player does not want upgrade everything - in a game you have a sutuation and you only want to upgrade this or that UNIT types, eg. you want stronger archers than only archer - you dont need other infantry being upgraded so that is "useless" for you in that situation. this is better strategic option than upgradein 30 unit types at once for insane costs or insane amount of techs.

maybe you are right: this is the root of the problems: TOO MANY units are upgraded now with only level up.

so i think best approach would be
- less units to upgrade with one upgrade set (eg ingfantry splitted to eg.: polearm, sword, axe, thrower?, archer (are these also in infantry?))
- also techs
a) mostly only 1 level up tech to upgrade them (a costy one for eg. "Hardy Polearm infantry")
b) or having multiple techs if desired (one level up tech like "Hardy Polearm infantry", and some blacksmith techs like "+1 armor +1 arrack techs") - but max 3 in total

1. I meant blacksmith techs (and other similar techs which provide extra stats — they right now are core techs you need to research to level up. Actual infantry/cavalry tech (for example) are just an additional requirement to slow down a bit leveling.

2. Hm... But you can upgrade less units — for example you can forget about researching ranged and shield techs, research only sword and armor to upgrade non-shielded foot melee units.
Or you can research infantry, armor and ranged to upgrade shooters.

I need to explain current system a bit more so you will understand so let us go to email.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok