Ud balancing discussions

[MrLich]

Right now ud are one of weakest races, plenty of units that are below filler in terms of usefulness(zombie butcher, wight, etc) no ranged siege(corpse flinger with his pathetic range doesnt cut it, wrecking ball requires a steady supply of builders or corpses to be useful) and rather weak late game compared to other races(humans have imperials, elves have ents, orcs have giants, minotaurs and uruks, and ud has phantoms,monsters, comperatively weakest of them all)the tech tree is also the weakest of all races(many filler techs, like fling corpse, bone sight, cannibalize, and barely useful ones like calcified bones, which for some reason dont even add armor pierce)

[makazuwr32]

Wight will get more usefulness later. It will become tc unit and will be expanded into several more units.

Ranged siege — ud will get a zombie gargantuan who can throw fellow zombies, skeletons and other units and dealing bonus damage to buildings.
Also ud later will get a magic siege unit.
Being immune to both poison and fire it will be rather tough unit that can deal lots of damage.

Monsters are not late game. They are part of base race that can be researched rather early.

Also other sub of undeads is unholy knights (all knight units apart from spectral rider).

Ud will get more phantoms and cheaper techs for them by the way — that was already discussed.
Including giant-sized phantom.

Also in general undeads' motto is "quantity over quality" so it is fine for them to have relatively weak individual units.

[MrLich]

Monsters are just closest thing ud have to elite units, as phantoms lack unit selection, and dmg, in fact ud struggle with dps and survivability

[makazuwr32]

Phantoms actually are better option due to ability to raise them over and over and over.

Especially with cost reduction for their techs.

Also unholy knights a bit later (in next few updates) will get rebalance and will become better than they are now.

[MrLich]

The ability to raise over and over adds some survival, but they lack much in offence departament, (good luck using them against races with good armor) range aint good either, and their usefulness is rather limited, as theres plenty of unit roles nonexistent for phantoms

[makazuwr32]

Against armored races you can use hell of pain by sacrifice.
Sacrifice ud dragon and deal 333 damage to enemy.

Best damaging spell in the game. Literally.
By the way lich will get higher spell range for this spell later.

[MrLich]

Theres a slight issue with hell of pain, lich has the survivability of a paper, and it destroys phantom along with corpse, so you basically train 6 turn one use missiles

[MrLich]

It can be fixed, but rn its super bad, destroys a unit along with corpse you could get, range is weak, and you Cant choose which unit to sacrifice, resulting in a rather useless ability

[makazuwr32]

I did not say to use phantoms as missiles.

Also hell of pian by sacrifice i think is presented on cursed knight as well.

Only problem is that you can't choose target to sacrifice.

Destroying unit with corpse is planned or otherwise it will be too op.

[MrLich]

If its planeed, then theres no point to use it on anything other than skeleton, phantoms are costly to train, for 1 shot of damage it isnt even worth using

[makazuwr32]

I did not say anything about using phantoms for sacrifice ofto this spell.

Use zombies, wights, skeletons, ghosts, gargoyles.

[MrLich]

Cursed knight needs a solid rework though, like over half of abilities are useless, one is unreliable, but at least useful, and hes overpriced at that(unless you count the fact it drops a rider corpse, which currently is a major strong point of cursed knight)

[makazuwr32]

Not only cursed knight but all knights will get major overhaul.

[MrLich]

I get it, but that will be useful later, as zombies need expanding if they ever will be used as ammo, wight is trash tier for now, and ghosts arent a thing rn, and with current range theres a big risk involved

[MrLich]

Cursed knights mostly need more survivability, or at least a tech tree to make them on par with other races elites,not to mention filler knights who are just diffirent variants of melee warrior and cavalry warrior with a not too useful twist

[MrLich]

I feel like ud just have too many units with not too useful debuffing auras, but then again, buffing ones are superior in every way

[makazuwr32]

Cursed knight is only mounted offencive caster in whole game so this unit is mostly fine (concept wise).
Alas during rebalance i will look onto other casters and compare them to tis unit. It definitely needs better spell selection.

As for auras — well we are testing them for now.
Not too long ago you won't even dream about getting any debuffing aura with range higher than 1.

[MrLich]

Cursed knight is mounted caster on paper, its spped is rather weak for a mounted unit, i think he definitely needs more survivability if he keeps being a debuff caster, or tweak it and make it actual support

[MrLich]

By comparison ud casters look bleak compared to other races, they dont have anything for support or heals, dont increase dmg potential of units like orc shaman or alchemist, they have limited uses, as almost every race has disenchant on the units they frequently use, and they dont exactly have anything that seems op(summon ent,lifesteal, fireball and etc)

[makazuwr32]

Well except of summon golem.
Alas some buffs for ud will be good to have as well.
And some more spells in general.

But that is delayed up to magic update.
Ud will be the race who will benefic the most from this update.

[MrLich]

Golem gets nerfed to oblivion, so it doesnt count

[MrLich]

Also small question, zombie gargantuan will be an actual ranged siege unit, or the throw will have low range, also where is it training?

[makazuwr32]

Golem gets nerfed to oblivion, so it doesnt count

Not to oblivion.
Only cd (1/2/3) and tech to unlock. They will get alsp higher vanishing as compensation. No more stats nerfs to them are planned.

[makazuwr32]

Also small question, zombie gargantuan will be an actual ranged siege unit, or the throw will have low range, also where is it training?

Gargantuan will be trainable in graveyard or raisable from giant corpse by zombie reaper.

Main role of gargantuan is melee, siege is an option. Alas range for ability will be good enough for undeads — 6-7-8 range. Also unlike most ranged siege units this unit will not consume action to move so you can move and shoot.
Speed 3.

[MrLich]

I see, hope it will have good ability range,like fodder cannon or more, as a tanky low range thrower propably will end most times just like wrecking ball

[MrLich]

Seems good, lower range than usual on siege isnt a big issue if you can shoot and move, cant do safe shots, but that was to be expected with ud

[makazuwr32]

Range for throwing will be 6-7-8 or 6 +2 via techs. For throwing to damage specifically (2 other throw abilities will have slightly lower range).

Alas melee attack will be good as well for it.

[MrLich]

Even if it will be good, survival is a big weakness of ud now, skeleton giant doesnt have too great armor, so usually it just gets the axe treatment

[makazuwr32]

Survival of individual ud unit does not matter that much when they have much higher amounts of units.

[MrLich]

Sure, but not all can be raised from the dead, without something with tad more survival they always will lose a war of attrition game