Ud balancing discussions

[makazuwr32]

Well they will get some more survival ways:
1. Zombies will get a tech that will let them to drop corpse crawler — upper half of zombie is still alive and still needs braaaaaaains!
2. Lich will get a tech that hides it for few turns. It can freely cast spells still while being invisible.
3. There was an idea for TRAINABLE skeletons to drop corresponding corpse (once, after they raised from dead they won't drop it anymore). Under discussion. Raised skeletons will not drop corpses.
4. Undeads are planned to get few temporary summons one of which will be force shield — a castable detroyable barrier with vanishing. Can't be healed/mended but can stay loooong amount of time in delay vanishing aura.
5. More summons for undeads. Zerg rush... Wait. No. Undead rush! Will work awesome with spirit towers.
6. Skeletons merging will be a thing — you can merge 2 damaged skeletons to get one fully healed. Required same skeleton types (2 archers for example) but does not require same tier (so you can heal this way with normal skeleton golden or monster).
7. Skeletons merging 2 will be a thing — incorporating skeletons to planned horrible existance. Undead variant of veteraning — that horrible existance will gain permanent stats boost this way.
8. Ghosts and other incorporeal beings — will have dodges but will be weak to magic. Banshee included.
9. Possession — unique to banshee convert ability with self sacrifice. Can't possess animals, dragons, mounted, mechanicals, plants and skeletons/zombies. Some units also will be immune to possession (berserkers of dwarves for example). If you possess worker you may build barracks and other buildings of tainted race and get access to their units (for example to drow with elven dodges or to master armored black orc). Or you can just possess that ettin/imperial dragon and bring havoc upon enemy forces.
10. More debuffs for undeads. Weakness, curse, fear, disarmor, rust, disease, plague, blind, sorrow, ruin beam and many more.
11. Aoe buffs and debuffs. Cast via single spell slowing onto whole enemy group.

And many more...

[MrLich]

Guess im bickering about survival too much, when as long as there are ways to deal good dmg, it isnt an issue, current ud have pathetic survivability and their dmg is rather bad, but guess that can change, especially if they can effectively use their units as ammo for siege and ranged attacks

[MrLich]

The worker possesion option seems like super dream scenario, like 99%of the time either banshee dies before cast, or worker dies right after possessing, but otherwise a cool way to defend against opponents

[makazuwr32]

Undeads will also get lots of subs.
Demons (may be divided into 2 or even 3 subs);
The veil (alive worshippers of undeads and their experiments like various chimeras — for example fusion of orc and cheetah);
Vampires (yes, as a full sub);
Tomb crawlers (mummies, sphinxes, tomb guardians);
Revenants (elemental warmages who can raise over and over as long as nearby somewhere is corpse of phantom).

One of demon subs will be able to summon once a copy of unit with changed vanishing (new effect that will be unaffected by vanishing+). If used right and on big boss unit it may become game changing...

The worker possesion option seems like super dream scenario, like 99%of the time either banshee dies before cast, or worker dies right after possessing, but otherwise a cool way to defend against opponents

Well it may become a good option in bigger fights when one of opponents is near death.

[MrLich]

Dunno if the demons will be more generic, like imp or succubus, or more creative

[MrLich]

Sphinxes arent dead per say, and im pretty sure they even cant be, but thats just mythology

[makazuwr32]

Dunno if the demons will be more generic, like imp or succubus, or more creative

Both.
Generic — imp, demon, hellhound, succubus, hellhorse, pit fiend, efreet, devil, these might be able to summon fully healed own temporary copy for the aid;
Creative — limos, eurynomus, shadowstalker, orthus, epiales, empusa, fallen angel, djinn and more;
Elemental demons — fire, ice, earth, shadow elements and sprite/demon/lord grades (like drake/dragon/wyrm).

Sphinxes arent dead per say, and im pretty sure they even cant be, but thats just mythology

Sphinxes will be also constructs but flying.

[MrLich]

I was thinking of a legion demon, splits into smaller copies of himself when taking damage(if ud get a good heal that can affect demons, legion loses max hp also when splitting)

[MrLich]

Efreet are normally fire spirits, but guess here they work for the forces of darkness

[MrLich]

Ud will look more like a mage faction with no ethical bounds after the magic update lol

[makazuwr32]

Well that's how they should be.
No ethics, no racial discrimination — everyone is equial against death itself.

[MrLich]

But there will be some units that have nothing with necromancy, or ud per say, like efreet or Sphinx, wouldnt be surprises to see a rakshasas (normally uber racist in dqd settings, the all rakshasas should be at the top, rest can be slaves mindset) or duergars

[makazuwr32]

Scourge itself is not only about undeads.
The veil will bring alive units for this race who can fight and die to be raised as skeletons.

Demons is a way to bring chaos and get to their target faster (and efreet will be part of demons as fire demon with gating).

About sphinxes we will see. They might become a desert themed alternative to dragons for all races.

[MrLich]

Right now ud need consistency the most, less cool units that work only on paper(butcher, mummy, vampire) more solid units that do their job, like actual shielders, ranged units, support casters, siege, and etc, also dont have anything against cool units as long as they work good enough

[MrLich]

Are undynes planned?

[makazuwr32]

Siege will be on hold for some time.
We will give some improvement to wrecking ball and bone catapult but for now that's it.

Also just an idea — what about giving for wrecking ball when it speeds up 2 extra buffs: one that allows it to pass through all enemies to free space (non stackable, lasts 3 turns; ability usage will update this effect) and other that deals some passive damage (12 damage per stack) to all units in range 1 (stackable, lasts for 6 turns).

[MrLich]

In war of attrition the one with better tanks and ranged units wins usually, so rn dwarfes are best in that regard, as their shielders and machines are tanky, and in range they got crossbows, gunners, Defender, and said machines, not to mention they can cheat cooldowns with mines, which honestly seems way too powerful to every other races couriers

[MrLich]

I think wrecking Balls biggest weakness is the fact it has low survivalibity, and hurts itself more, also since there are some broken defensive buildings like kingdom under the mountains, you need a horde of them to destroy it, overall ud need some siege unit that can either outrange it, or move from outside of kingdoms range and then attack it in range

[MrLich]

I think a stronger earthquake ability that cost wrecking Balls hp might be better than passive that hurts units, its way unreliable to begin with

[makazuwr32]

In war of attrition the one with better tanks and ranged units wins usually, so rn dwarfes are best in that regard, as their shielders and machines are tanky, and in range they got crossbows, gunners, Defender, and said machines, not to mention they can cheat cooldowns with mines, which honestly seems way too powerful to every other races couriers

Will not agree about couriers.
Elves have completely free couriers on their temples of nature and great trees.

Alas undeads might require some changes to soul collectors and the way to obtain them. For example 3rd tier that will let them summon for free on necropolis (current mansion).

Alas if current situation is too muc we might increase cd for abilities on gold mine up to 5-6 turns.

As for war of attrition between undeads and dwarves i will think more. Alas i agree that dwarves are bad opponent due to gunners for skeletons whose p.armor does not work in this case.
Also did you try to help yourself with bone golem march?

[makazuwr32]

I think wrecking Balls biggest weakness is the fact it has low survivalibity, and hurts itself more, also since there are some broken defensive buildings like kingdom under the mountains, you need a horde of them to destroy it, overall ud need some siege unit that can either outrange it, or move from outside of kingdoms range and then attack it in range

For low survivability — it will get slightly higher hp (320) and extra melee and p.armor via speed up. Especially that is true for p.armor since it will become impenetrable for most units who deal piercing damage with very few exceptions for elves.

+10 p.armor per speed up is not a joke.

[Anchar]

Hmm, can give undead the ability to summon creatures at a high range (for example, at a range of 10-11)? The undead would be able to sabotage by killing builders, gunners and breaking buildings in the rear. Also, in case the enemy forces the entire territory with something, then among the summoned could you be flying units to place them in the mountains.

Or is it already in the plans?

[MrLich]

Higher amount of units will always lose in long run, ive seen it plenty of times, hundreds of skeles bullied by kingdom and Zeppelins and shooters, or dozens of cursed knights, or both, its just hilarious, unless you are the ud player

[Anchar]

You also forget about the cobolts. Although I haven't played for them for a long time.

[MrLich]

Also piercing armor is much more inferior to melee one, many ranged units bypass it like gunners or axemen, and theres melle units as well, or summons like dogs for example,overall weak melle armor means for now ud get bullied by axes, guns, Cannon shots, and they lose in melle

[MrLich]

Bone golems are too slow to even Storm a kingdom under the mountains lol, cant get through increasing numbers of axes and guns, biggest ud issue is you can fit only so many weak units on 1 grid, theres no real way to overpower enemy, unless ud get options for aggro rushes, similar to elves, but right now they get a late game winding zerg rush that its Point less by the moment you get your hundreds skeles

[makazuwr32]

Ud will get ways to use skeletons.

[makazuwr32]

Also this.

Well they will get some more survival ways:
1. Zombies will get a tech that will let them to drop corpse crawler — upper half of zombie is still alive and still needs braaaaaaains!
2. Lich will get a tech that hides it for few turns. It can freely cast spells still while being invisible.
3. There was an idea for TRAINABLE skeletons to drop corresponding corpse (once, after they raised from dead they won't drop it anymore). Under discussion. Raised skeletons will not drop corpses.
4. Undeads are planned to get few temporary summons one of which will be force shield — a castable detroyable barrier with vanishing. Can't be healed/mended but can stay loooong amount of time in delay vanishing aura.
5. More summons for undeads. Zerg rush... Wait. No. Undead rush! Will work awesome with spirit towers.
6. Skeletons merging will be a thing — you can merge 2 damaged skeletons to get one fully healed. Required same skeleton types (2 archers for example) but does not require same tier (so you can heal this way with normal skeleton golden or monster).
7. Skeletons merging 2 will be a thing — incorporating skeletons to planned horrible existance. Undead variant of veteraning — that horrible existance will gain permanent stats boost this way.
8. Ghosts and other incorporeal beings — will have dodges but will be weak to magic. Banshee included.
9. Possession — unique to banshee convert ability with self sacrifice. Can't possess animals, dragons, mounted, mechanicals, plants and skeletons/zombies. Some units also will be immune to possession (berserkers of dwarves for example). If you possess worker you may build barracks and other buildings of tainted race and get access to their units (for example to drow with elven dodges or to master armored black orc). Or you can just possess that ettin/imperial dragon and bring havoc upon enemy forces.
10. More debuffs for undeads. Weakness, curse, fear, disarmor, rust, disease, plague, blind, sorrow, ruin beam and many more.
11. Aoe buffs and debuffs. Cast via single spell slowing onto whole enemy group.

And many more...

Undeads will also get lots of subs.
Demons (may be divided into 2 or even 3 subs);
The veil (alive worshippers of undeads and their experiments like various chimeras — for example fusion of orc and cheetah);
Vampires (yes, as a full sub);
Tomb crawlers (mummies, sphinxes, tomb guardians);
Revenants (elemental warmages who can raise over and over as long as nearby somewhere is corpse of phantom).

One of demon subs will be able to summon once a copy of unit with changed vanishing (new effect that will be unaffected by vanishing+). If used right and on big boss unit it may become game changing...

The worker possesion option seems like super dream scenario, like 99%of the time either banshee dies before cast, or worker dies right after possessing, but otherwise a cool way to defend against opponents

Well it may become a good option in bigger fights when one of opponents is near death.

[MrLich]

I think possession works better as a delete option with getting the unit, like getting stronger melle units that way seems way better than maybe getting a worker, the only question is if it wont end as a much more situational assassin that doesnt work on majority of things later(most races shift towards rams, ents, machines, or elites with good mental resistance) with bigger payout

[makazuwr32]

Workers will allow you to get some very unique units, buildings and especially casters.

Also we might make possession of workers a bit more profitable — when you possess worker you can research in tc 1 turn cost related tech to unlock that extra sub for ud.