Orc have way too much free units IMPLEMENTED

[DreJaDe]

I joined this unfair game in multiplayer to see what OP things are they doing again and noticed many things.

It seems to me that Orc have way too much free units compared to other races.

Like how most of their buildings are upgrade free but most humans need to be bought in upgrades with gems.

This is disadvantageus for other races in a no upgrade game which should have equalized beginner's chance of winning.

Their units are also like this like how most of their mages is free from being locked in upgrades.

Many required technology too is somehow pro orc like how if you activate "all upgrades" poison weapon is already there while most of the techs of elves are inaccessible.

[makazuwr32]

Personally i will not try to balance at least right now no upgrades games and all techs games.

No upgrades is a mess mainly because some races (dwarves and a bit less undeads for example) rely too much onto upgrades and techs being mid and late game race. They are not "Rush and Crush" races.
Alas i think orc leader unit can be put into buy section and removed from no upgrades game this way.

All techs on the other hand also is problematic right now because all races are very different and to balance starting techs in this mode as well as access to other techs is not that easy.

Will be put on hold for some time.

[DreJaDe]

Pretty much guessed it.

Just saying it right now for the future.

[makazuwr32]

I do not see any way how any of this game types can be fully balanced.

No upgrades problems:
1. Undeads with orcs:
How orcs without orc leader can counter necromancer and its flesh golem?
2. Humans vs elves:
How humans can counter elven druid's wolf spam? They will be just overhelmed and won't be able to move forward for even single tile.
3. Any race with dwarves:
Dwarves without upgrades are just more costly humans. How can they counter any other race in case of no upgrades?
4. Any race with elven ent warriors: how they can counter those hulking mass of tanking? No fire archers, no slingers in this mode will be availible.
Humans can rely onto mages maybe.

All techs problems:
In this variant we must choose equial techs for all races which are researched at start.
But... In case of orcs which tech of humans/elves can be compared to poison weapons? Or goblin shout? Goblin grenade?
Or in case of elves which tech of orcs or dwarves can be compared to nature call (vision of neutral units)?

Alas here at least i see one idea how things can be balanced — writing tech + all sub unlocking techs. Only. No other techs though will be auto given still and will require researches. But in this case that mode must be renamed a bit into something like "All subs free" or like that.

[makazuwr32]

In case of no upgrades — i would like to completely remove that. Just because this is even harder to balance than in case of all upgrades availible. And it will also affect other game modes balance a lot (for example when upgrades are enabled).

[DreJaDe]

This is what I think since you've ask

1. Lock necromancer in upgrades or lock the golem in upgrades. They can also be limited with their mage factory that can locked by the upgrades. Any of this should do right?

Necromancer is strong with its magic arrow anyway and it's just substitute with lich.

2. Humans have shielder and healer. 1 turn pricy but training could be divided. Wolf upg can be lock also in upgrades. It's basically their tower after all so I don't want to lock it in upgrades.

3. Dwarves are powerful in no upgrades with their tower. This is generally their greatest weapon back then.

4. Doesn't humans have elephants? UD with its stopping power. Orcs with its orcs. Dwarves with the... They need more troops.

The one thing dwarves can't really counter really is stealth.

I think poison weapons can easily be locked in upgrades. Orcs are strong in no upgrades in the first place.

Nature's sight is pretty limited.

[makazuwr32]

Necromancer is supposed to be base unit.
It is also now trainable in tc.

Shielder is buyable and is not accessable in no upgrades.
Mage's fireball is not researchable without mage tower which is not accessable in no upgrades.

Wolf upgrade (nature) is not accessable in no upgrades since it requires temple of nature.

That tough tower of dwarves will be buyable. As for cheap tower they will get it later.

Elephants are buyable and not accessable in no upgrades. Unlike ents.

I mentioned "nature's sight" tech exactly because exept bone sight of undeads there are no even somewhat close techs for other races.

[DreJaDe]

Necromancer is supposed to be base unit.
It is also now trainable in tc.

Shielder is buyable and is not accessable in no upgrades.
Mage's fireball is not researchable without mage tower which is not accessable in no upgrades.

Wolf upgrade (nature) is not accessable in no upgrades since it requires temple of nature.

That tough tower of dwarves will be buyable. As for cheap tower they will get it later.

Elephants are buyable and not accessable in no upgrades. Unlike ents.

I mentioned "nature's sight" tech exactly because exept bone sight of undeads there are no even somewhat close techs for other races.

1. That's why I said that it can be locked. They have more mages anyway and lich can definitely fill the gap in no upgrades.

After all, necromancer is way too powerful.

Wait, just check it. Necromancer isn't even in no upgrades.

2. No? Shielder is available in no upg. They are not buyable also. They also have double attack to one hit them.

Idk what's the deal with mage? Why'd you mention this?

3. Idk, I just said how they can counter others.

4. Just check it. Your correct. But mages should be able to counter them right? It's disarmor, it's slow? Also, if elephants is locked, why is ent not?

Others don't need to counter it. Humans also have dogs and birds, should be enough unless nature sight affects them. Shit that's op.

[makazuwr32]

Ents are not locked because they are only tough unit of elves.
Also ents have less speed and they are normally only tanks. Not an attacking units.

Shielders should not be at no upgrades for sure.
For all races.

Without tough tower of dwarves they won't be able to counter enemies that easily.
Also it will take more time later to even finish it.

As for nature's call what do i mean is that if we give in all techs for some race some tech than we should give somewhat equial (not cost wise but effect wise) to others. Or in case of poison weapons of orcs what tech of elves or humans can be considered as equial to it?
For example if we will use cost-wise equivalent than we can get next situation:
we will give to orcs goblin shout, poison weapon and goblin grenade (6+8+6 turns or total 20 turns).
For same cost we can give to elves:
Nature (6), treetop archery x2 (8), tech for +2 sight (3) and nature call (3).
Question is — is this fair and equial?
Especially on fog map with lots of animals.
Or for undeads:
Monster skeletons unlock (6), curse (4), skeletal power (4), skeletal toughness (4), bone sight.

Answer is "No". It is not fair. Orcs get for orcs specifically not that much advantage but for goblins a lot while elves and undeads will get huge advantage especially on fog maps.

That is why i do not like "all techs" option.

[DreJaDe]

Not equal? No

Which is why I want balance. I was suggesting the balance already aren't I?

We all already that other race have special advantage. What I'm asking is the other additional advantage that can change or limited.

For now, "no upgrades" is still the best buffer zone with new and old.

Well, kinda useless anyway so I guess this is the end.

As always, I ll wait till the future.

[makazuwr32]

At least up until new magic will be made and new buildings stats will be in.

[Dagravian]

Well the idea behind the "no upgrades matches" is be a "begginer friendly match". Where the new player can see what a race has to offer from it's very core units... To then, buy complements for his favorite faction.

And from that point, it made me realize that we should priorize this asap and review what is available to the core of every race... Balancing the base/default units to then, balance what we have on the upgrades tab. A literal tech tree review.

[makazuwr32]

That is quite different approach.
Any ideas?

[Dagravian]

Yes, as a tech review, i think the key word here should be ORDER... So the idea is to firstly review/clear some concepts that should be made to ease the work.

First things first, lets focus on the core of the races, subs and most of the complements should be put aside for a moment... To begin we need to organize a few things:

X. Define exactly the core idea of the race, letting clear exactly to the users the concept of each race.

(eg: undead -> an army that emphasis on reanimating corpses and spelling curses.
Orcs -> a slow army that emphasis on brute force and melee damage.)

X. Define exactly the advantages and weakness meant for each faction.

(eg: undeads -> has a cheap army but poor strength. Great vs ranged, weak vs mages and fortifications.
Orcs -> (((Should))) have a nice melee army and weak ranged units... Etc.)

With those settled, then we can start for real. On this phase we should begin the practical work, sorting what in fact is on the "no upgrade matches" and organize what is default, what from upgrades/gem tab should be default and what from the core should be on the upgrades tab. Basically what we have and what we want... And so we should begin to...

X. Define exactly what we have.
(This basically should be a list of what each race has as core units on the "no upgrade matches" currently.)

X. Define exactly what should be the default Unit types and techs to every and each race.
(This should be a list by role and function/utility that each race should share, like, to have at least one swordman type unit, at least one archer unit, etc)

X. Define the vital default units and techs for the concept of the race.
(Special units like, for undeads, someone able to rise the dead like necromancer/lich. Or in case of elves, a couple of extra archers/ranged that they must have...)

After these are defined and organized we should head to implement the changes we find suitable... Then we can proceed to the rest of the units, and at this point we should also organize the upgrades/gem tab aswell, but for now, that's what i suggest to be made atm...

[makazuwr32]

I must admit this is good post, ddd.

I think we must wtite a post for each race defining its core and such.
Alas i prefer not to touch for now, until we will finish all big updates (buildings update and magic update), no upgrades game variant.

[Dagravian]

The general concept of "no upgrades" would be basically "the minimal necessary to the concept of the race works", stuff enough to the newer player understand what exactly he is dealing with.

Upgrades by their own are complements to it, and i realised that, if the core is "messed", little we can do in order to reach the so desire stability we've been looking, that's why i think this should be a priority (not urgent tho, but it should be made as soon as we possible can...)

[Stratego (dev)]

maybe this topic is obsolete since it was posted?

[DreJaDe]

maybe this topic is obsolete since it was posted?

I don't think it is but... I didn't play aof for a year so im not sure of what is what but if we count based on update. I don't think it is outdated.

[makazuwr32]

This one is not solved because we did not touch yet upgradeless gameplay or all techs gameplay.

I am planning to work on those things after magic update.

[Stratego (dev)]

if it is true we can get some into shoplist.
Drejade any sugegstions?

[makazuwr32]

I will remake whole shoplist and other things after magic update anyway.

[Stratego (dev)]

I will remake whole shoplist and other things after magic update anyway.

we dont wait for any reworks with any balance problems
we make quick changes here,
so we should not answer any balance topic with future promises.

if u have any "sure" ideas what then will go to shop tell me and i will put them in now (does not need to be a complete list - just from the guts)

[makazuwr32]

Problem here is that if we wi make some changes right now we still need to make more changes after buildings update and after magic update.
Again.

And i do not want to work on ssme thing over and over after every update.

[Stratego (dev)]

Problem here is that if we wi make some changes right now we still need to make more changes after buildings update and after magic update.
Again.

And i do not want to work on ssme thing over and over after every update.

you always say this but there is not double work:
- no work needed now, only from the gut like: surely XY uinit will go shop and ZY units.
so no need to deep think anything.
- if you can not no problem i will select randomly from my thoughts

nothing wrong can happen - later we can even replace shopitem to other units if something does not fit.

[makazuwr32]

you always say this but there is not double work:
- no work needed now, only from the gut like: surely XY uinit will go shop and ZY units.
so no need to deep think anything.
- if you can not no problem i will select randomly from my thoughts

nothing wrong can happen - later we can even replace shopitem to other units if something does not fit.

Shop directly affects gameplay in upgradeless variants so moving there some units (for example troll headhunter) is not good.

And randomly selecting units for shop is not good either.

[Stratego (dev)]

naturally will nto be random, ok than i select some after i check how we are in shop now.

[DreJaDe]

naturally will nto be random, ok than i select some after i check how we are in shop now.

Here

Units
Cheetah archer
Cheetah rider
Goblin Spiker
Goblin Crossbowman
Orcish crusher
Orc Archer
Orcish Axe thrower
Elite sabertooth rider
Master sabertooth rider
Goblin Shaman
Troll Shaman
Orc Scout
Raptor rider

Buildings
Troll hut
Orc Pit
Stone shelter

[Stratego (dev)]

thanks!

i will select from these,
anyone else have ideas which are safe to lock behind upgrade form these?

[DreJaDe]

thanks!

i will select from these,
anyone else have ideas which are safe to lock behind upgrade form these?

Select?

No, no. That's all the units you need to remove from tc...

This is not the list of current available from no upgrade tc. There's still an ample amount of units left even if you remove all in the list.

[Stratego (dev)]

yes, i ment maybe you listed some that should not be removed, so i asked others to give their opinion which is safely removable.