Orcs Balancing Discussion IMPLEMENTED

[makazuwr32]

Please do not open any new topics for "orcs are op", "they need nerf" and so on themes.

This topic will be used from now for that.
Any new topics or posts related to this theme will be deleted later.

Any bug-related topic are fine to post.


Now several themes to rebalance orcs which are under discussion for quite a while:

1. Armored orc armor nerf
From 8/12 down to 6/8 (and keep +2/+2 per tier up to 10/12). Additional nerf of attack and bonuses with Shielders rebalance.

2. Removal of all amphibious orcish units from non-near-water tcs and from all factories exept orc dock.

3. Remaking Orc leader and merlock leader auras to give +3/+6/+9 attack to melee units, +2/+4/+6 for thrower units and +1/+2/+3 for shooter units.

4. After magic update - removal 100% heal spell from troll shaman (will be replaced with troll regen spell that gives passive % based regen for few turns, up to 10%/turn), nerf of orc shaman's regen spell down to 5% x Spell power (20%-30% will be as result), goblin shaman will also receive same spell until we will agree on actual spell list for it.

5. There are definately required some nerfs to uruk hais and minotaurs but that part is under discusssion.

[Savra]

These are except able, I however would increase armoured orc warriors armour to 6/8, all other shielders will have higher pierce armour.

[makazuwr32]

Updated.

[Anchar]

I think it's worth adding here that the double hit option should be removed from the ball thrower trolls, as well as the buff of the slave owner orc and possibly a buff to hit the area , I hope you haven't forgotten about that? In my opinion, this should be done as quickly as possible.

[Anchar]

Also I expect the bat goblin to be removed from the center.

[makazuwr32]

Bat goblin from town center removal - agreed.
Ball thrower must be fixed a bit later (categories) and that probably will fix double striking and whiplashing him issues (will not be affected anymore).

Aoe for ball thrower will still be there though.

[Stratego (dev)]

awesome!

[Savra]

Actually, I already fixed the ball Thrower issue.

[Anchar]

I would also be in favor of: Reducing the speed of the raptor lancer from 6 to 5 (at least at stage 1).

Reducing the speed of building goblin cannons, and also reducing their speed (at stage 2 its speed is 1, and at stage 3 its speed is 3 , looks like a flaw) and it is possible to make them impassable in the forest.

It is possible to reduce the range of the magic shot for the troll shaman (let the magic siege be the lot of the warlock orc, otherwise no one uses it).

I also remember that somewhere they wrote about how to lock the trolls behind technology, I think it would be good, but I don't see it on the list.

Redesign the dragon summoning system, since they are very strong and their cost (measured in goblins per 1 turn) is more profitable than that of other races.

The construction speed of orcs is very high, given that they do not even have technologies that enhance construction like a human, I believe that their construction speed should be at the level of undead.

Orc towers are the most powerful, they clearly need a nerf: the most desirable option is to reduce their range to 8, although it would be nice if they removed the magic shot making them vulnerable to air units, although option 2 will be useless since because ...

Orc archers are still strong and merciless even without enhancements, at 1 stage their range is higher than that of other races with the exception of elves, perhaps it would be worth reducing their range to 7? After all, the undead, even among phantoms, do not have ranges above 7, why should orcs have them? It will also solve the problem of unpopularity of goblin archers.

Also, I still doubt that trolls and giants can walk on water and not lose speed in the mountains, given that water trolls will appear soon, I think that players will prefer the usual ones since water battles are not popular and the possibilities of an ordinary troll are enough (unless of course the water troll is an even bigger hacker)

Also, the siege giant of the orcs looks in my opinion also quite strong, since it hits at a distance like a human trebuchet and walking through mountains and water has invaluable mobility and no comparisons of damage and hit chance are meaningful.

[makazuwr32]

Raptor raider — sounds well but a bit later. There were plans of making raptor raider into 4-5 turn cost lancer while giving a 3 turn cost goblin lancer with current stats (apart from armor and maybe a bit lower health). This new lancer will have 0/0 base armor and less hp than current raptor raider.

Fodder cannon - agreed on speed (will be updated to 1/1/2), impassable through forest, lower construction speed. Maybe we will also add for it miss chance.

Magic missle will loose its bonuses and will do only raw fixed damage thus this will not be changed (also magic missle's spell range is calculated as caster's spell range +2 and we can't change this +2 part for 1 or 2 exclusive units while changing spell range of troll shaman will nerf it a bit too much).

Yes there are plans to lock trolls behind tech.

We will think about excluding goblin pikers from dragon summoning.

No they will have comparable to humans mend rate on workers. Alas their buildings will loose later any construction bonuses (during buildings update).

Uhm which orc throwers have range higher than 8? I do not know any. Orc axe thrower has range 6, fire javelin thrower has range 6, troll axe thrower has range 8 (will not be changed because it acts as archer-type unit in terms of bonuses), troll headhunter has range 7, goblin bat rider has range i think 6.

As for orc archers we are discussing about their nerfing.

Water walking for giants is only option for them to cross the water apart from bridges. They are not allowed to enter into transports thus disabling water walking is out of option (alas some speed nerf for water walking is an option). As for mountain walking — we will discuss that (applied to all current mountain walkers by all races).

Giant rock thrower... Maybe -1 range will make it a bit less op. Attack will not be changed, mountain/water walking see paragraph above.

[Anchar]

Uhm which orc throwers have range higher than 8? I do not know any. Orc axe thrower has range 6, fire javelin thrower has range 6, troll axe thrower has range 8 (will not be changed because it acts as archer-type unit in terms of bonuses), troll headhunter has range 7, goblin bat rider has range i think 6.

Towers, volcanoes, defensive structures.

[DreJaDe]

I was thinking if Orcs rider could have their 4 speed.

It's like the same speed as the dwarves one.

The logic would be that orcs are heavy.


Another thing is their starter which is the axe thrower. Could that be change to a 2 turn cost unit like goblins archer.

I know that dwarves also have 3 turn unit as starter, but we all know that it's stat's advantage to normal human archer is mostly insignificant.

[makazuwr32]

Starting unit to be changed to goblin archer is asseptable.

Dwarven 3 turn cost starting unit is temporary by the way and must be replaced wih hand crossbowman.

As for towers and such - they are not throwers. Same as with Human towers and human throwers - they are different beings.
Also they require 4 techs to get up to range 9 so for now it is fine. Alas i think these techs can be moved into different buildings.

As for orc raider he is not that heavy as dwarven one.

Anyway i would prefer to nerf a bit more orcish shooter-type units (but not throwers) instead of nerfing their melee units and their cavalry (apart from raptor rider which was accepted to be changed and a bit of giants).

[Savra]

Raptor riders- I can do that, but only at cost 4, max speed 6 like wolf riders. However no on cheaper goblin lancer. At least for now.


Fodder cannon- the speed and construction thing is fine, however for the trouble you have to go through to get this, I'd say it can remain with 100% accuracy since I see it as being similar to a ballista for orcs.

Trolls- I plan to lock the big ones (troll slugger, troll crusher, Olog Hai, etc.) Behind a tech, the little ones will remain the way they are however most likely removed from tc, I have plans for expanding them.

Goblin spikers will remain as sacrifice options, primarily because green dragons aren't as bad as they once were considering you can practically curse, slow, disable any orc unit without them having the ability to disenchant that because they lack this ability. Plus, that's a lot of wasted production when orcs have better options.

Giant marksman- -1 range might be fine, however for humans I'd like to make it so their ranged siege units get extra range not only from upgrades but in tiers as well, max range 12 for trebuchet, 10 for catapult, 9 for catapult ships.

[makazuwr32]

Raptor riders- I can do that, but only at cost 4, max speed 6 like wolf riders. However no on cheaper goblin lancer. At least for now.


Fodder cannon- the speed and construction thing is fine, however for the trouble you have to go through to get this, I'd say it can remain with 100% accuracy since I see it as being similar to a ballista for orcs.

Trolls- I plan to lock the big ones (troll slugger, troll crusher, Olog Hai, etc.) Behind a tech, the little ones will remain the way they are however most likely removed from tc, I have plans for expanding them.

Goblin spikers will remain as sacrifice options, primarily because green dragons aren't as bad as they once were considering you can practically curse, slow, disable any orc unit without them having the ability to disenchant that because they lack this ability. Plus, that's a lot of wasted production when orcs have better options.

Giant marksman- -1 range might be fine, however for humans I'd like to make it so their ranged siege units get extra range not only from upgrades but in tiers as well, max range 12 for trebuchet, 10 for catapult, 9 for catapult ships.

goblin lancer was proposed by alex (cheetah lancer).
Fodder cannon has on tier 3 speed 3 unlike speed 2 on ballista. I think it must get lower speed (2) on tier 3.

About dragon summoning - what about changing sacrifice cost for them to 3/5/7 units (from 4/5/6), increasing cooldown for dragon summoning and giving initial cooldown for all 3?

About human siege - exept giving for catapult and catapult ship range 10 and 9 i agree on this. On these 2 points we will discuss when we will work on buildings update.

[DreJaDe]

Raptor riders- I can do that, but only at cost 4, max speed 6 like wolf riders. However no on cheaper goblin lancer. At least for now.


Fodder cannon- the speed and construction thing is fine, however for the trouble you have to go through to get this, I'd say it can remain with 100% accuracy since I see it as being similar to a ballista for orcs.

Trolls- I plan to lock the big ones (troll slugger, troll crusher, Olog Hai, etc.) Behind a tech, the little ones will remain the way they are however most likely removed from tc, I have plans for expanding them.

Goblin spikers will remain as sacrifice options, primarily because green dragons aren't as bad as they once were considering you can practically curse, slow, disable any orc unit without them having the ability to disenchant that because they lack this ability. Plus, that's a lot of wasted production when orcs have better options.

Giant marksman- -1 range might be fine, however for humans I'd like to make it so their ranged siege units get extra range not only from upgrades but in tiers as well, max range 12 for trebuchet, 10 for catapult, 9 for catapult ships.

goblin lancer was proposed by alex (cheetah lancer).
Fodder cannon has on tier 3 speed 3 unlike speed 2 on ballista. I think it must get lower speed (2) on tier 3.

About dragon summoning - what about changing sacrifice cost for them to 3/5/7 units (from 4/5/6), increasing cooldown for dragon summoning and giving initial cooldown for all 3?

About human siege - exept giving for catapult and catapult ship range 10 and 9 i agree on this. On these 2 points we will discuss when we will work on buildings update.

I think if it's cheetah, it should only have low speed and an ability to increase it's speed to maybe even 7.

[Anchar]

Goblin spikers will remain as sacrifice options, primarily because green dragons aren't as bad as they once were considering you can practically curse, slow, disable any orc unit without them having the ability to disenchant that because they lack this ability. Plus, that's a lot of wasted production when orcs have better options.

Yes, against the background of the trolls, the dragons are not enough Cheaters, but as soon as the archers, trolls and others are fixed, the dragons will be next in line (I am sure that many people will start crying on this forum because of them).

As for curses, only undead (mummies) have something effective at the moment, but undead do not have effect removers, elven druids for 6 turns are too expensive and a -1 speed buff is just ridiculous for Wyrm and this is given 50% resistance.

And if you also remove the bonus damage from the dragon archers, then it will just be a flying non-burning troll destroyer.

[Anchar]

As for towers and such - they are not throwers. Same as with Human towers and human throwers - they are different beings.
Also they require 4 techs to get up to range 9 so for now it is fine. Alas i think these techs can be moved into different buildings.

These technologies are clearly not enough, this is just a short respite before the orc gains unlimited power. The strength of these towers is comparable to the human tower in which there is a catapult pumped up to 9 ranges.

Imagine the cost of a human fire tower and add it to the production time of the catapult + construction of research buildings + research of the technology of the catapult + its transport and compare this cost with the cost of the technology of the orcs and the construction of their tower. I have not tried to calculate this and I know that the damage indicators will most likely be different, but I think that volcanoes are much better.

[Anchar]

As for the throwers, I don't understand what you mean. Most likely the translator has translated or added something wrong.

[makazuwr32]

As for towers and such - they are not throwers. Same as with Human towers and human throwers - they are different beings.
Also they require 4 techs to get up to range 9 so for now it is fine. Alas i think these techs can be moved into different buildings.

These technologies are clearly not enough, this is just a short respite before the orc gains unlimited power. The strength of these towers is comparable to the human tower in which there is a catapult pumped up to 9 ranges.

Imagine the cost of a human fire tower and add it to the production time of the catapult + construction of research buildings + research of the technology of the catapult + its transport and compare this cost with the cost of the technology of the orcs and the construction of their tower. I have not tried to calculate this and I know that the damage indicators will most likely be different, but I think that volcanoes are much better.

Still as for me this nerf is not required.
Either increase cost for techs or give for races some siege (physical or magical) with range 10.

About dragons, savra. What about making all summonable units to have 0% spell resistance by default? Not only for dragons but for flesh golems, wolves and so on.

[Shark guy 35]

I think that for a goblin lancer, it could ride on a hyena, that seems to fit the goblins well.

[makazuwr32]

Reason for cheetah is that goblin archer already rides that animal.

[Anchar]

I think if it's cheetah, it should only have low speed and an ability to increase it's speed to maybe even 7.

Well, do you already offer any gains? For me, the bonus damage for cavalry against Human Elephants looks strange, they already cost 8 turns, few people use them, so they are easily killed by any orc cavalry (only orc) and the Elephant cannot even run away from them.

[makazuwr32]

Elephants are good enough. Alas i would prefer to remove any additional bonuses for now (like anti-animal bonuses on wolf riders or anti-elephant and in general anti-giant cavalry).

Later specific costly anti-cav cavalry will gain anti-giant cav bonuses in addition to their normal bonuses (gryphon riders and some other cav of comparable cost).

[Anchar]

Reason for cheetah is that goblin archer already rides that animal.

Just like a human archer and a human scout ride horses; elf archer and unicorn scout, boar dwarfs, undead on dead horses.

[makazuwr32]

Yes, sort of.
To keep more mountable animals for other races as well.

[Anchar]

In general, it turns out he should be the same lancer like raptor raider? (I just realized) I do not agree with 7 speeds for him since he will lead in the capture of centers and if he is so weak then what is the point in it if there is an orc scout who will beat the cavalry as well but at the same time more effective against the infantry?

[makazuwr32]

Np bonus speed for this lancer, also it will have when maxed (with goblin shout) same attack and speed and lower armor (4/4 vs 8/8) and health when compared to current raptor rider.

[Anchar]

What is his overall speed at each of the 3 stages? And will he be locked in a goblin building or available in the center?

[makazuwr32]

speed will be kept at 6 for all 3 levels, tc and goblin tent.