Balancing of troll headhunter and troll axe thrower — SOLVED

[makazuwr32]

I have lately received numerous reports that troll headhunters and troll axe throwers are too powerful now since goblin and orc archers have reduced range (not only them but this was mentioned as one of problems).

Therefore here is this poll. Poll lasts for 30 days.

Personal opinion:
As for me troll axe thrower and troll headhunter need some balance but not sure which one.
I would prefer to reduce their range.

Side note: troll axe thrower will regain later archer-type bonuses (same as quick archer has ones).

[Stratego (dev)]

i agree, in most of my games i am figting against single or few troll headhunters and if i do not insta kill them (somehow) than they are healthy again.

For headhunter:
there is no such option but i would totally half them for first, i mean:
- half cost
- half hp
- half damage
- half actions (headhunter to 1)
- half everything.

this way they migth not be a single hard target but a few smaller with similar capabilities.

If not this than i would chose more then one from above:
- reduce damage
- reduce attack range

For: axethrower the -1 attack range seems good.

[makazuwr32]

For now i want to keep them quite unique units (more than 1 action, throwers, anti-foot for axe thrower) so half cost and others is not an option.

I will also look into troll regen effect — need to check how many hp it heals per turn. Could be a problem in this since i had found already 3 other effects which give too many regen than before upscale.

Maybe we need to reduce both attack and range but keep them affected by orc strength spell later.


Update: effect of troll regeneration is set perfect and still restores 15% of max hp.
Alas since hp was upscaled more than attack it requires to deal more damage to outdamage current troll regen.
Thus i am thinking to reduce a bit troll regen effect later (down to 10%) if they would still be too good.

[Stratego (dev)]

seems not enough but we will see.

also i would remove all miss chance - that is infuriating missing many arrowshot by the superb professional elf archers.
(in general i dont like the miss change thingie - everything that is random)

[makazuwr32]

Only troll headhunter has dodge ranged. I agree that it is a bit too high but:
1. It is vulnerable to fire, any other skirmisher has no ranged weaknesses and thus must be dealt in melee;
Alas dodge later, if troll headhunter will be considered still too powerful, can be reduced (but not removed still).

2. Regarding dodge ranged — if we will remove dodge ranged than elves will require either more techs for armor (9 more levels for armor techs, surpassing even dwarves in armor than) or techs for bonus health (and becoming muscle brain-like units with comparable to maxed orcs health if not higher); both variants do not fit well for elves, which is why dodges will be kept.
Outside of elves dodges are used on: skirmishers (dodge ranged only — they are protected by ranged attacks who can also deal melee damage; we can't give them like 9001 p.armor since they are supposed to be protected by any ranged attacks and some units deal melee damage type, also some melee units (pikemen for example) deal piercing type damage so we can't for this reason as well increase p.armor thus dodge ranged will be kept for this category), kobolds (dodge counter, 0-30 via 3 levels of techs), human captain (10-20 dodge counter), snakemen (dodge ranged). Thus dodges are not used too much (alas we have in plans few more units who will have dodges — ghost-like units for undeads for example) but outside of elves and partially scalefolks we do not plan to give en masse dodges.
Dodges also are quite easy counterable:
2.1. Dodges do not affect magic damage so via magic you are guaranteed to damage that unit;
2.2. Use units with bonuses against units with dodges — bonuses cut in half dodges on unit thus giving you higher chance to hit.
2.3. Use units with attack type (melee or ranged) against which unit does not have dodges — some units have limited dodges: for example archers and casters of elves have only dodge ranged and no dodge melee so any melee unit will damage them for sure. We are planning this to expand even more later (some units of elves will loose dodge ranged and will have only dodge melee).
2.4. Regarding elves and kobolds specifically: dodges also require some turns to spend in order to research them. This means they will be researched in place of more units or other techs (less attack value or less armor). This also way to balance things — you need to balance between unit production and dodges researching which favours elves' non-elven opponents.

3. Regarding miss chance — miss chance is kept for siege units and units who must not even able to hit normal units (for example battering ram is ram with humans inside and normally human can easily avoid its attack thus this unit has 100% miss chance).
Outside of that if any unit has miss chance (not siege unit by any means) than it is a mistake.
Later maybe we will set miss chance for siege 100% so they will for sure hit only immobile targets like buildings.

[makazuwr32]

(in general i dont like the miss change thingie - everything that is random)

1 miss is luck, 10 misses is frustrating, 100 misses is skill, 1000 misses is statistic. In general i see no problems with miss chance since in strategy there always must be some unexpected events and you must be prepared for that if you want to win for sure (for example what will you do if out of fog suddely will appear 5 wagons full of maxed uruk hais wmand they will start massacre your army? you must be prepared for that). Miss chance is one of them (others can be stun with small chance to apply, poison/fire or other dot effects not applying (will be for enchant effects later — they will become longer but will not have 100% chance to apply effect on hit to balance things — you will require more than 1-2 enchants to make things the way you want), miss chance from dazed effect (lighting elemental, will be stackable and will give low % miss chance per each stack) and some more). If you want to win you just need to bring more units against that pesky dodger.

[Stratego (dev)]

but dont forget when i have a couple of fire archers against them (eg. melee can not get close) and all fire arrows miss their shot that is really frustrating and meaning all living archer will die in next turn as that troll isn atomic bomb against arhers - lol.

so dodge is a problem, as it counters one of the 2 "anti" weapons - i thin we should give him more armor instead of dodge .

[makazuwr32]

The problem with armor is described above:
We can't give more p.armor alone since p.armor does not reduce damage from ranged attacks reduced by normal armor (axe throwers, ballista, javelin throwers, gunners, bomb throwers). Also we have melee units with piercing type damage. Or you want to give this unit comparable to maxed defender shielder's armor (above 30/30)? «To represent the fact that it is good in dealing with ranged attacks of any type».

The most that i can agree is with reducing dodge ranged down to human skirmishers' numbers.

Also if you have on elven archers some dodge than it is not guaranteed that they will die. This works both sides.

Elves also now have cavalry archers — with even 1 tier of armor upgrades deer archers can survive 1 hit of maxed headhunter (without buffs) with 1 hp.

Also it is your choice to use fire archers against it (fire archers by the way will get +1 range, both elven and human). Other skirmishers (for example elven assaulter) do not even have this ranged weakness and for guaranteed damage must be either damaged with magic or attacked in melee (this unit when maxed has 60% dodge ranged! will you complain in this case as well??? he also has 2 attacks and can deal very serious damage to your shooters).

One additional recomendation:
Cavalry (knights and light cav) now have bonus against throwers as well. Try to use them (especially variants of mounted blade dancer).

[makazuwr32]

Status update:
After discussion between me and savra we have decided to reduce attack range of orc throwers (orc axe thrower, orc javelin thrower, bat rider) down to 3/4/5. Attack range of both troll headhunter and troll axe thrower will be reduced down to 4/5/6.

Attack will be kept same.

Poll is closed.

[Stratego (dev)]

i feel it will not be enough, but i will see - and if i see it not enough - we change further .

btw: i think it is very good that a unit have only armor against arrows and not against other attacks - at least it will be killable and for troll headhunted that is ment to be a anti-archer seems perfect to be strong agaisnt archers but weak against all non pierce attacks.

[makazuwr32]

With attack reduce (especially on troll axe throwers by -2) they will be within reach of normal units. Especially early game.

There later will be update for burning effect to deal more damage to trolls and hydra (from 30 up to 40-45).
These 2 changes will be enough as for me.

As for armor: as said above there are good amount of melee units who deal piercing damage and good amount of ranged units who deal melee damage and troll headhunter as well as other skirmisher units are supposed to be protected not from arrows alone (this will become ABSURDLY RIDICILOUSLY HUGE advantage for dwarves with their musketeers) but from all sorts of ranged attacks.

[Stratego (dev)]

how come drawven musketeers when we talk about troll headhunter? that is an anti archer unit not anti musketeer - you should not train these trolls against musketeers that is all.

but as i said, if this is not enough we will nerf troll headhunter more - i see that the most "non orc" like unit.
as orcs in general (in my head) should be strong in melee, mass trained (so cheap) but having bad ranged units (i dont mean siege here) and troll is one of the best ranged unit in game imho.

[makazuwr32]

Right now skirmishers are made as anti-shooter units.
Regardless of archer, gunner or darter.

With range 6 maxed it will not be that good ranged unit. Especially when maxed fire archers will outrange them by 2 tiles.

Elves also will get more buffs to their ranged units later.

[Anchar]

Hmm, has it really been 30 days?

[makazuwr32]

Savra proposed better solution thus it is closed.

[Stratego (dev)]

actually it is not one-sidedly closed becasue of savra suggestion, but because i said lets try savra suggestion.