Remove dodges from orc spear throwers.- ANSWERED

[Anchar]

When playing elves against orcs, I spammed with archers as this is the only thing that can be opposed to them. The orcs got a troll spear thrower and it is logical that I made fire archers. However, not only did these archers not kill the troll with 2 shots and the orc killed them as archers and then was healed, but he also dodges the fire archer's shots. This fighter already has good armor so he also dodges as well as elves.

You need to either remove his evasions, or his armor, or give the elves and people fire spear throwers.

And in general, I am in favor of having 1 action, not 3

[Stratego (dev)]

please check all units of elves and find out which is good against trolls.

you use totally bad tactics against orcs by making only archers!

please revise all your balancing topics and keep only those that are valid - meaning: you well aware your own race, and your enemy race (orcs).


ingeneral: if you do not mastering a race (meaning you know every single bit of a race) do not post balancing topics on them - as balacning is impossible without knowing both (your and the opponent) races!

[Anchar]

As far as I know, not elves, not humans, have no units against trolls or spear throwers. The only such unit is the elf fire archer. This elf cannot compete with a troll with a spear thrower, since he is an archer, and a troll with a spear thrower is a killer of archers who dodges the shots of a fiery archer.

I choose the tactics of spam archers because other tactics are useless, orcs are stronger in all areas: 1) in the defense of a splash tower up to 9 range and incendiary damage make their territories inaccessible.

2) All orc fighters are stronger in all statistics, Because of this, it is impossible to kill some units in certain situations.

3) Orcs have the best spells, with useful spells.

4) Orcs have good healers who have a lot of lives so they hard to kill

5) Because of the raptors of the lancers in 3 turns and with 6 speeds, water goblins in 1 turn and goblins on bats, they quickly capture the centers.

6) They have a good construction speed.

7) They develop faster due to the fact that their technologies are located in the centers, and because of good builders.

8) They have unique units that are truly unique: an orc slave owner, a goblin on a bat, dragons with which you can spam.

9) Orcs have flaws that always benefit them, and not vice versa.

I played on 3 races 1 on 1 and I think that it is impossible or very difficult to win against the orcs in a fair battle.

[Alexander82]

It is not a new morning without @Anchar opening a new "nerf orcs" topic.

[Anchar]

Yes, I'm tired of losing to the orcs, so I came to fight them on this forum.

I don't mean to accept all my themes, but the sum of all these aspects makes the orcs too powerful.

[Alexander82]

If you don't mind wasting your time...

[Stratego (dev)]

Yes, I'm tired of losing to the orcs, so I came to fight them on this forum.

I don't mean to accept all my themes, but the sum of all these aspects makes the orcs too powerful.

if you feel totally knowing all units, than i suggest
a) bring some other players too that shares your thoughts to support your change requests (so we see it is not only u having such problems)
b) also very helpful if u make in mapeditor a setup where one side is orc and other is elves (having same sum cost units, taking techs in consideration) and play the outcome and write the results. maybe on that we can suggest you using better units - OR at the end it can reveal that the orc unit is invicible as you said.
I remember myself having problem earlier against eg. troll headhunter, but as i remember it is already fixed so it is beatable by some units (but that is definitely not archers as headhunter is the mega archer killer lol).

[Alexander82]

Troll headhunter can be killed by any fire source. This time it was just unlucky with dodge (something that happens all the times when fighting against elves).

If you remember dodge was changed to be just halved, not totally removed, when you're attacked by a unit that as bonus against your (e.g. A headhunter could 100% hit archers, now it just halve their dodge chance).

That change have been made to the benefit of the elven army, that has dodge for all of its army.

Obviously that gave a benefit to the headhunter as well (before the fire archer could 100% hit him).

Since all skirmishers have both dodge and high p.armor and the headhunter is the only skirmisher that get its dodge ranged reduced by fire archers, I don't see a reason to take into account that request.

[Anchar]

You may not be lucky with an elven archer who, if survives, does not cause big problems, and not a troll who kills 3 archers per turn. Troll spear thrower dodges 3 shots at a time, it is very difficult to kill him.

You write that if my ideas are supported by other people, then perhaps there will be changes, but how can I get support when posts similar to mine are first they closed it saying that I allegedly made a vote, then they deleted It looks strange.

If you want the orcs to be the strongest, then write that.

[Stratego (dev)]

Anchar:
as i wrote:
- make playtests where you can show your point.
- without playtests no one see what is happening on the battlefield (eg. was it a wrong counter army agaisnt troll)

Votes section: sorry, i have deleted because talking on that was going not so good way - and that is not good place to be opened to be voted.
here is the separate topic for balancing discussions.
Please dont open a vote, i say bring people to this forum saying same as you say, make playtests and then we can talk about how to deal with the problem.

please do this:
1. playtest, and post here results and screenshots.
2. bring other players that share your opinion (experienced players)
(3. do not open votes, i will myself if needed)

[Anchar]

Okay, I got excited.
Do you want me to create a game against myself and screen every move? Or maybe create a game against an orc player? Or maybe I can find a sparring partner for this case?

I also want to know where you can send these screenshots?

As for that topic, I didn't want it to be a vote, I just wanted to ask that player what their problem is.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok playtest as i think of:

- you open mapeditor
- you put down the units of both players (full grass terrain is ok in most cases)
- you register the turncost/tech costs needed for those units
- you activate+run the map
- make starting screenshot
- you play the few turns to finish the skirmish
- right before last "blow" you make screenshot of the map
- you make the report including
- the result
- the screenshots
- any comment or thing how you played it.
- evidence on that the unit "costs" (incuding tech costs) were in balance in both sides
(instead of screenshots you can make a video of the playing that is the best but probably more time consuming)


and pointing out that even the balance one or other player lost badly
(meaning one has most units still alive but other is none)

So in a balanced game where
- you chose the best units against the other
- you put balanced amount of turncost units
at the end both players lost almost all units.

i think i will open in this balacing forum a "howto" and putz this into it.

sending screenshots: see the how to attach big images in FAQ

[Anchar]

In my opinion this is the wrong test.
In 1 mapeditor fighters do not have technologies that determine the essence of the whole game
In the 2nd battle on grassy terrain, it confuses me, since in most maps there are mountains and water obstacles, the use of which significantly affects the outcome of the battle (and which naturally go a plus for the orcs)

Also, do I have to enter the costs of constructing the corresponding buildings for these fighters?

[Stratego (dev)]

you are a little wrong:
1. you can give technologies in mapeditor - use triggers.
2. if the test itself is terrain relevant than make terrain - but dont foget! unit balance should work on all terrains, you if you make a very specific terrain setup than that playtest is not usable. - that is why ia suggested homogenous terrain. grass/woods/water anything.
3. buildings: sure.

[Anchar]

I will do it. It turns out that you need to put it in this topic or maybe you personally?

[Stratego (dev)]

you can post the result here in this topic.

[Anchar]

I am not good at using triggers. Problem. Okay, I'll figure it out.

[Stratego (dev)]

use 1 trigger
- condition: 1st turn of 1st player
- effect1: add X tech to playerY
- effect2: add X tech to playerY
- effect3: add X tech to playerY
- effect4: add X tech to playerY
- effect5: add X tech to playerY
...

[Anchar]

Do you need to write this manually in 1 trigger? or i don't understand

[makazuwr32]

I should admit that most basic melee units (elves included) have 100% bonus against all throwers.

I recommend to train some elven melee and also use ents for cover of your archers/melee/druids.

Ents by the way also have bonus against throwers.

[Anchar]

Running as an elf swordsman at a troll thrower, given that he is under the cover of other orcs, is a waste of swordsmen.

[makazuwr32]

Running as an elf swordsman at a troll thrower, given that he is under the cover of other orcs, is a waste of swordsmen.

Should i remind that you can make opening with your own range?
Also for now sword dancer can jump over units and obstacles.

And anyway. This is strategy game. Before you tried every possible variant of that race you can't say that something is unbalanced.

[Anchar]

I would like to see how you, in a 1v1 battle against the orcs, will try to make dancers and study the technology of their jump, so that you can jump to the troll and die without killing him.

You write as if the orcs have no one other than the troll spear throwers, while you make useless jumping dancers, the orcs will already spam their dragons and build up their territory with towers.

You just have to watch how the range of their towers gets to your borders, and how their archers, shield guards, trolls, with the support of healers, will take the centers from you like candy from a child.

[makazuwr32]

And you write as if elves have only archers without glades, ents (thorn elemental for example has 100% damage on counter and 1/50% power range which is awesome to hold off orcs and/or kill 'em), their own melee (cavalry or other variants), or wolves. (Or dodges of elves).

Later, when i will be a bit more free we can make test match: me as elf vs you as orc.
Let's see who will win.

[Stratego (dev)]

such matches are good! do it!

but playtesting is very fast (compared to a match) and i suggest making one.
even one with makaw suggested counter units.

Do you need to write this manually in 1 trigger? or i don't understand

in one trigger.

[Anchar]

Perfectly. I agree to the match, I want to see how the victory of the elves over the orcs in an equal battle looks like.

[DreJaDe]

And you write as if elves have only archers without glades, ents (thorn elemental for example has 100% damage on counter and 1/50% power range which is awesome to hold off orcs and/or kill 'em), their own melee (cavalry or other variants), or wolves. (Or dodges of elves).

Later, when i will be a bit more free we can make test match: me as elf vs you as orc.
Let's see who will win.

I think the best test for this is not him as orc cause i dont see him as a good orc player.

I suggest you devs vs the best orc player in the aof community you can find

[Anchar]

Is there some kind of guide? I made trigger 1, then clicked on it, then clicked plus and added null labels, in these labels I chose parameters similar to those you wrote in the list, and then I don't know what to do. Do I need to do these parameters for each fighter?

[makazuwr32]

let's make one agreement though: no water units (as elves do not have all their planned water units ready yet) exept transports.

I have made several skirmish maps where any randomness can be excluded (Sacred forest maps set, Battle of forts are for duels, Elemental Conflux and Ruins of Aspenimahos are for 4 players (FFA), Path of Three is for 3 FFa players).

For testing duel battle best maps would be either Sacred forest Normal/Big/Huge or Battle of Forts.
I will be availible on next weekends to start.

[makazuwr32]

And you write as if elves have only archers without glades, ents (thorn elemental for example has 100% damage on counter and 1/50% power range which is awesome to hold off orcs and/or kill 'em), their own melee (cavalry or other variants), or wolves. (Or dodges of elves).

Later, when i will be a bit more free we can make test match: me as elf vs you as orc.
Let's see who will win.

I think the best test for this is not him as orc cause i dont see him as a good orc player.

I suggest you devs vs the best orc player in the aof community you can find

I want to showcase for him that what he says actually is not impossible to counter.

By the way, Dre. what about match between you and me? i feel that my skill became a bit rusty and needs some time to return to previous level.