"1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project FINISHED

[makazuwr32]

If they will get healer that will heal for fixed amount orcs and goblins while for giants it will use % based healing (maybe 50% one).

sorry i am being dumb, not sure i understnad, so you mean:
- Healer is locked behind in a subrace building/tech.
- it heals to 100% but only its own subrace units
- but still heals all other units in race but with less percentage? like max 50% healing.

is that you say?

No. What he meant is healer with 2 spells:
Heal (like healer of humans has) - requires to define proper "Heal Rate" stat for this spell, will be able to heal every unit
Regen 50% - only for giants, heals half of max hp.
(That is just an example).

I suggest such healer to be locked behind sub still though while giving for orc shaman regular heal ability and for troll shaman troll regeneration ability (gives passive over time regen effect to unit).

Cementary reaper is not a balance problem if you mean that it is op or something. It is problem of completely useless unit to make more useful in the first place.

[Stratego (dev)]

Also what can be changed for balancing of orcs - reduce construction rate of all their factories down to 0% but also reduce their health down to 30 hp (for all buildings, carved monster cave must have alas 50% construction rate bonus) and armor down to 0/6 (again for all buildings).

oh orc buildings? was it planned you say?

[Stratego (dev)]

wolf den:
"hpMax":30,
"bonusMendingWhenConstructing":1,
"bonusMending":1.0,

so it seems to me there is no any penalty on building it what do u mean be increasing to 0% ?

[Dagravian]

upgrade tab: it is not about balance i think but good idea making there some kinda tier-s!
also balance should be seen in only 2 filters: default units in a race (without upgrades) and all units in a race, but in this topic we want the "all" as in most games local+multiplayer we play with all units.

In fact, it is, not a "race balance" but a "gameplay balance", the thing is a new player don't have all upgrades, so if he does desire to have a open match or a multiplayer with friends with what he had unlocked so far, he will not stand a chance against someone that got the half or full tech tree since the new player will be overhelmed with several superior units that he does not have acess, which is unfair and thus not a great experience due unbalance of powers.

5- Subrace as option button: this is also not a blancing question but good idea!

Same "gameplay balance" issue, as subraces provide many variables and possibilities to a match, depending on the situation, some subraces are just better than the others, so if a player owned a full tech tree of certain sub but not owned another, he will be crushed by the ppl who own given subs and know how to take advantage of map meta when using that specific sub.

-------------------------
balancing ones:

powerbase: i see it is set on low values 1..3 maximum - is that too much?

Well yes, its mere existance is problematic, since you also consider that this value is summed in the dmg output that is usually already higher than armors, doesn't matter the armor ammount even if the unit was mean to be melee/ranged proof, powerbase will "magically" damage an unit that should be resistantant to it.

3- Armor and p.armor values don't reflect well on non living creatures, its not enough, in fact a minimal value should be set as default as racial/default trait on these, being bonus for current value for all undead, nonliving, manufactured objects and structural fiends.

you mean you would increase armor values? on which units?

Yes, All units/objects that do fit in the characteristics i mentioned above, being:

Undead (things that where living, but got killed, and then got ressurected, awakened, cursed or possessed)

Unliving (things that wheren't living to begin, but are also not dead, but are "awakened" somehow)

Ethereal (Fiends born from unknow source, manifestating "life")

Manufactured obj (not dead, not living, just manufactured, as a tool, can't a do nothing if not managed by a secondary force)

Structural Sentient (similar to manufactured obj, but are concious of their situation and are able to take action by their own)

Living Structure (similar to structural obj, but aren't usually manufactured, but are living and growing/expanding)


On all these cases, they share some characteristics, they can be pierced, smashed, choped in half, exploded... They would act as nothing happened unless their weakness is found, they are entirelly destroyed or banished, unlike regular lifeforms that would scream or panick when suffering some minor cut or trauma. So at least, an armor boost on units of these categories would be desirable.

[Stratego (dev)]

If they will get healer that will heal for fixed amount orcs and goblins while for giants it will use % based healing (maybe 50% one).

sorry i am being dumb, not sure i understnad, so you mean:
- Healer is locked behind in a subrace building/tech.
- it heals to 100% but only its own subrace units
- but still heals all other units in race but with less percentage? like max 50% healing.

is that you say?

No. What he meant is healer with 2 spells:
Heal (like healer of humans has) - requires to define proper "Heal Rate" stat for this spell, will be able to heal every unit
Regen 50% - only for giants, heals half of max hp.
(That is just an example).

I suggest such healer to be locked behind sub still though while giving for orc shaman regular heal ability and for troll shaman troll regeneration ability (gives passive over time regen effect to unit).

So i checked and seems we have
- orc shaman (now has 50% regen - you suggest to remove this ablility, and giving only normal heal)
- troll shaman (now has 100% regen - you suggest to remove this ablility, and give it troll regeneration enchantment spell)
but no 3rd healer we have -> are you suggesting a new healer to lock under sub?
(i thought these 2 you want to loch under sub, or one of them)

[Stratego (dev)]

(first post is updated please check - good news if that is all the ideas than seems not more than 1-2 day task - if we have arts for new things )

[makazuwr32]

I meant to make new caster, not to lock existing ines behind subs.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok!
and for balance is that needed (the new caster) or enough only to change the existing casters (orcshaman, trollshaman) as you suggested.

[makazuwr32]

Well we were still planning to move both regen spells from troll and orc shaman and leave them behind subs.

This ability (if normal healing + troll regen will be given) not so god damn required for orcs thus new caster can be left for better times.

Also what can be changed for balancing of orcs - reduce construction rate of all their factories down to 0% but also reduce their health down to 30 hp (for all buildings, carved monster cave must have alas 50% construction rate bonus) and armor down to 0/6 (again for all buildings).

oh orc buildings? was it planned you say?

As for buildings of orcs - we are planning to make for all factories in general 0% construction rate and 0% mend rate thus it can be changed (by the way it would be awesome if you will make this change for all factories in general). But reason for hp reduce of orcish factories is because i want to undo for now hp + armor increase that was made like year ago for orcs. That change was made for no reason and right now orcs are able to make their monster caves on mountains via 1 worker + 1 laborer in single turn. Also they became too tough when compared to buildings of other factions, especially in the very early game.

[Dagravian]

For me, % healing should not be used at all, its too strong and has no penalty, while also being used by super cheap cost-effective units... If it is meant to be a thing, then it should be limited to 10% & 20%, higher than that we will just just keep the same issue by masking and delaying the problem.

But i was wondering, what if we make % healing work using sacrifices? Like 33% heal with 3 or more sacrifices? Orcs have 1 turn goblins, so there is no better currency to pay for giantic healing than that, in a fair way at least.

[Stratego (dev)]

Well we were still planning to move both regen spells from troll and orc shaman and leave them behind subs.

This ability (if normal healing + troll regen will be given) not so god damn required for orcs thus new caster can be left for better times.

Also what can be changed for balancing of orcs - reduce construction rate of all their factories down to 0% but also reduce their health down to 30 hp (for all buildings, carved monster cave must have alas 50% construction rate bonus) and armor down to 0/6 (again for all buildings).

oh orc buildings? was it planned you say?

As for buildings of orcs - we are planning to make for all factories in general 0% construction rate and 0% mend rate thus it can be changed (by the way it would be awesome if you will make this change for all factories in general). But reason for hp reduce of orcish factories is because i want to undo for now hp + armor increase that was made like year ago for orcs. That change was made for no reason and right now orcs are able to make their monster caves on mountains via 1 worker + 1 laborer in single turn. Also they became too tough when compared to buildings of other factions, especially in the very early game.

ok to be more specific about 0%
now:
cave on ground: hp = 40, "bonusMendingWhenConstructing":2,
cave on hills: hp = 40, "bonusMendingWhenConstructing":3,
goblin camp: hp = 35, "bonusMendingWhenConstructing":1.7,
shaman hut hp = 30, "bonusMendingWhenConstructing":1.5,
swamp dock hp = 40, "bonusMendingWhenConstructing":3,
uruk tent hp = 70, "bonusMendingWhenConstructing":1.5,

what is your suggestion?

remark: "bonusMendingWhenConstructing":2, means: 2x building rate than the builder rate, Eg.: orc slave rate:7 so it is +14hp per turn

[Savra]

I thought uruk tent was fine the way it is?

Anyway, if we're going to turn the raptor rider into a 4 turn unit, why not make a goblin skeever rider for their scout cavalry? It wouldn't need bonuses but it could have poison weapon as a side, just think of it as a goblin spiker on a giant rat.

As for healing, I don't think that making it sacrificial healing would help unless it's just the unit transferring life from itself to target, but that sounds more like something undead would use, the percentage healing would be preferable but would have the downfall of not being upgradable like everyone else's and would have shorter range, orc shaman could have for example a 20% regeneration potion, while troll shaman could have 50% or 30% regeneration but with a cool of 2 turns forcing the user to have to prioritize targets, but seeing how the troll shaman is getting a troll regeneration spell that it can put on allies, we could give a goblin shaman 10% regeneration potion, and the orc shaman a 20% regeneration potion.

In other words:

Goblin shaman: 10% regeneration potion, 3 rng.
Orc shaman: 20% regeneration potion, 3 rng.
Troll shaman: troll regeneration spell, grants unit troll regeneration, but also makes unit vulnerable to fire maybe, 4 rng.

Orcs shouldn't be good with spells anyway so shorter range for spells is best for them, this doesn't mean they should stop getting spell casters but that the spell casters shouldn't have As good of spell range as other races, also their support spells should reflect on what the race is good at, for example melee assist spells primarily for orcs, while range buffing spells should be left for elves (this doesn't mean elves can't have melee spell buffs but they should have spells focusing on their strengths).

I hope that explains my point of view clearly a bit. The idea here is to keep races unique healing abilities to them and not to have a copy and paste of abilities. We already have too much of that already were lifelink, fireball, and magic missile are concerned. We just need more variety.

[Savra]

Skeleton ball is idea of ramming ball of corpses.
Can't search right now but here on forum was somewhere topic about it.

As for ranged siege of undeads - we do not even have any proper idea right now.
If it will be skeleton than it will require 3 tiers (skeleton ball is exeption because it is actually just a ball of corpses).
If it will be something else and not a skeleton than it will require only 1 tier and 1 image (and thus different way to balance).

What if I made a home catapult that is summoned by the necromancer from corpses, it wouldn't need tiers but could have the ability to launch corpses dealing aoe damage, also it could have a normal ranged attack too. "Corpse fling" could also plague units as well. That could be researched though. I have a design in mind if anyone's interested.

[Savra]

Something like this was mentioned way back.

[makazuwr32]

Well we were still planning to move both regen spells from troll and orc shaman and leave them behind subs.

This ability (if normal healing + troll regen will be given) not so god damn required for orcs thus new caster can be left for better times.

oh orc buildings? was it planned you say?

As for buildings of orcs - we are planning to make for all factories in general 0% construction rate and 0% mend rate thus it can be changed (by the way it would be awesome if you will make this change for all factories in general). But reason for hp reduce of orcish factories is because i want to undo for now hp + armor increase that was made like year ago for orcs. That change was made for no reason and right now orcs are able to make their monster caves on mountains via 1 worker + 1 laborer in single turn. Also they became too tough when compared to buildings of other factions, especially in the very early game.

ok to be more specific about 0%
now:
cave on ground: hp = 40, "bonusMendingWhenConstructing":2,
cave on hills: hp = 40, "bonusMendingWhenConstructing":3,
goblin camp: hp = 35, "bonusMendingWhenConstructing":1.7,
shaman hut hp = 30, "bonusMendingWhenConstructing":1.5,
swamp dock hp = 40, "bonusMendingWhenConstructing":3,
uruk tent hp = 70, "bonusMendingWhenConstructing":1.5,

what is your suggestion?

remark: "bonusMendingWhenConstructing":2, means: 2x building rate than the builder rate, Eg.: orc slave rate:7 so it is +14hp per turn

All factories must have x1 multiplier for construction rate and mend rate.
Exeption is carved monster cave (on hills one) - this one must have x1.5 multiplier.
As for hps and armors - lower them for orcish factories down to 30 and 0/6 (with exeption of uruk tent - this one must have 50 hp).

As for healing - problem with % based healing spells is that they are ineffective on units with rather low hp.
That is why i suggest to keep 50% regen but lock it behind sub and give to rather costly caster unit (5-7 turns cost probably).
While basic casters of orcs will get normal healing spells (with heal rate).
Troll regen spell will give not "troll regen" effect but jist 4-5 hp regen for few turns ("troll regen" of trolls is % based and heals 15% of max hp per turn thus this specific effect i do not want to use for spell).

I'd say that orc shaman should get heal spell with 11 heal rate if spell range 4 or 15 heal rate if spell range 3.
Along with that regeneration spell of troll shaman orcs would be able to heal rather good. 50% heal must be put on hold for sub caster and 100% heal must be removed at all from orcs (or caster must have even higher cost).

Goblin skeever rider? I think giant rat will not fit logic-wise for 6 speed unit. Probably better to make cheetah rider goblin (especially because alex already maxe cheetah archer).

Lastly about that catapult - looks good for me.
Can you make for it also moving form (like human catapults have)?
Corpse fling will be used for no-cooldown aoe poisoning with some damage at cost of corpse nearby.

[Stratego (dev)]

cheetah rider goblin (especially because alex already maxe cheetah archer)

yes i asked him to figure out a replacement melee scout for the raptor rider starter unit, and he made on but he voted on archer idea.
what do u think? here is what he drew and planned:

cost: 4
speed: 6
hp: 20/25/30
attack: 6/7/8
range: 5/6/7
min range: 1
armor: 1/1 2/2 3/3
sight: 5/6/7
actions: 1
abilities: goblin grenade - cannot counterattack
bonus: like goblin archer

[Stratego (dev)]

Lastly about that catapult - looks good for me.
Can you make for it also moving form (like human catapults have)?
Corpse fling will be used for no-cooldown aoe poisoning with some damage at cost of corpse nearby.

guys i feel this is no longer a siege unit (will not damage buildings/mega buildings much) so this is not a balance requirement anymore - right?
so we have the real siege wrecking ball idea still running as balance requirement and this one needs a new topic with simply a new unit idea.
or have i misunderstood?

[makazuwr32]

cheetah rider goblin (especially because alex already maxe cheetah archer)

yes i asked him to figure out a replacement melee scout for the raptor rider starter unit, and he made on but he voted on archer idea.
what do u think? here is what he drew and planned:

cost: 4
speed: 6
hp: 20/25/30
attack: 6/7/8
range: 5/6/7
min range: 1
armor: 1/1 2/2 3/3
sight: 5/6/7
actions: 1
abilities: goblin grenade - cannot counterattack
bonus: like goblin archer

1. hp we agreed must be 18/24/30.
2. i do not like idea of giving for any race exept elves ranged cavalry starting unit.

Lastly about that catapult - looks good for me.
Can you make for it also moving form (like human catapults have)?
Corpse fling will be used for no-cooldown aoe poisoning with some damage at cost of corpse nearby.

guys i feel this is no longer a siege unit (will not damage buildings/mega buildings much) so this is not a balance requirement anymore - right?
so we have the real siege wrecking ball idea still running as balance requirement and this one needs a new topic with simply a new unit idea.
or have i misunderstood?

who said that? we can adjust bonuses and such. This unit can fit well for ranged siege.
It also just will have additional to its base attack ability to fling nearby corpse for aoe poisoning.

Alas melee wrecking ball made from corpses is still required.

[Stratego (dev)]

ork scout: ok, than make suggestion to a melee one.

undead onager: ok than, we can make both if we will have enough assets.

[Stratego (dev)]

Meanwhile: I talked to alexander and he says that
- the self growning bush (elf) - btw this one is awesome idea!
- and a new troll building
- and the wrecking ball - this one is also an awesome one with a self rolling self speed gaining mega killer ball
was already planned so i start making them
(wreckingball not yet, or only with mock stats as yet finalized)

[makazuwr32]

Ofc they were planned.
Good to see them finally implemented.

[Stratego (dev)]

to avoid musunderstandings:

in first post i posted the "problems"
and their "alternative solutions".

so
! not all solution alternatives will be made only the ones you / me alexander will see the best.
! only one thing is sure: the "problem" will be solved somehow (if you all say that is really a problem - so if u see aproblem listed that you think not a problem - say something) the solution can be any alternative that is acceptable to everyone - mostly alex and me.

[Stratego (dev)]

Troll building i am about to make.

i am not sure what was the suggestion what units to be there and what buildings of those unis should no longer be
current trolls with their CURRENT buildings:
- troll axe thrower (TC and caves) 
- trol crusher (caves and Volcano)
- troll headhunter (TC and caves)
- troll shaman (TC, shaman hut)
- troll slugger  (caves and Volcano)

what is the suggestion?

[Stratego (dev)]

All factories must have x1 multiplier for construction rate and mend rate.

you mean all races?
ok i listed Orks alredy (as was mentioned already) and was mentioned elves ("increasing construction rate of wolf den and other towers of elves up to 0%") so i list them too
I check and almost all buildings have already multiplier = x1
except:
- wall: x4
- temple: x1.6
- parapet: x1.6
- great tree: x4.5

so which would u change?

[Stratego (dev)]

resistance: Alexander told me it was planned to reduce the current high spell resistance setting to lower ones (high was because of conversion that is not anymore)

so i will set these for the balance.

so the current i know so far:
1, savage -> 30%
2. imperial -> 50% - i will set if alex confirms i understood well.
3. Uruk -> here some leveleing was planned, idk the exact vaules yet.
4. others: alex will talk to you guys about which is what should be.

[Stratego (dev)]

Elves little cheaper techs
solution:
a) armor, shield, bow, sword: 4/5/6 turns cost instead of 4/6/8
b) OR armor, shield, sword: 4/5/6 turns cost instead of 4/6/8 (without bow)

here have you considered using the wisp?, if you think using wisp should we change these? or you thought with wisp and no solution here?

[Alexander82]

@Stratego (dev) I think we should give a base +2 attack for all races' lancers aside raptor rider. That should make all lancers more useful.

[Stratego (dev)]

Stratego (dev) I think we should give a base +2 attack for all races' lancers aside raptor rider. That should make all lancers more useful.

I write it as alternative!
others please tell us if that sounds good for you!

[Stratego (dev)]

Also there is Orc training in which factory an Alex solution - seems good to me
please others tell me what you think of them.

[makazuwr32]

Stratego (dev) I think we should give a base +2 attack for all races' lancers aside raptor rider. That should make all lancers more useful.

I write it as alternative!
others please tell us if that sounds good for you!

Agreed.

Troll building i am about to make.

i am not sure what was the suggestion what units to be there and what buildings of those unis should no longer be
current trolls with their CURRENT buildings:
- troll axe thrower (TC and caves) 
- trol crusher (caves and Volcano)
- troll headhunter (TC and caves)
- troll shaman (TC, shaman hut)
- troll slugger  (caves and Volcano)

what is the suggestion?

all mentioned trolls exept shaman must be trainable in that building + volcano.
Shaman in that building + shaman hut.

All factories must have x1 multiplier for construction rate and mend rate.

you mean all races?
ok i listed Orks alredy (as was mentioned already) and was mentioned elves ("increasing construction rate of wolf den and other towers of elves up to 0%") so i list them too
I check and almost all buildings have already multiplier = x1
except:
- wall: x4
- temple: x1.6
- parapet: x1.6
- great tree: x4.5

so which would u change?

Megas, walls, parapet do not touch.
Temple is fine if it will have x1 multiplier.

resistance: Alexander told me it was planned to reduce the current high spell resistance setting to lower ones (high was because of conversion that is not anymore)

so i will set these for the balance.

so the current i know so far:
1, savage -> 30%
2. imperial -> 50% - i will set if alex confirms i understood well.
3. Uruk -> here some leveleing was planned, idk the exact vaules yet.
4. others: alex will talk to you guys about which is what should be.

3. 0%/5%/10%/15% (exept of Olog Hai - this one will have 30%/35%/40%/45%)
4:
Elves will have 20% spell resist as racial trait (only actual elves, not ents and other friends of them);
Dwarves will have 15% spell resist as racial trait.
Skeletons mounted must have 0% spell resist (right now they are having 0%/25%/50%);
Cavalry of orcs must have 0% spell resist (same as skeletons mounted some of them have right now);
Orcish giants in general must have 30% spell resist (not only savages but also trolls, merlock and orc leaders).
Phantoms must have 50%;
All glades must have 40%;
Warmage of humans must have 40%;
Wolves of elves must have 0% spell resist instead of 100%;
Zombies must have 0% spell resist;
Elven dragon must have 50% spell resist.

Maybe someone i forgot. Later i will post those who also must loose some spell res.

Elves little cheaper techs
solution:
a) armor, shield, bow, sword: 4/5/6 turns cost instead of 4/6/8
b) OR armor, shield, sword: 4/5/6 turns cost instead of 4/6/8 (without bow)

here have you considered using the wisp?, if you think using wisp should we change these? or you thought with wisp and no solution here?

Wisp can't help here because
1. Blacksmith has 1 carry capacity. If any unit is inside it than it stops producing. When wisp is inside it stops producing, than wisp is used and -1 turn, same as if there were no wisp.
2. Wisp requires techs to be unlocked.

If we must consider usage of wisps than firstly we must increase carry capacity of elven craftsman up to 2 (by the way same is true for human blacksmith and advancement center).