"1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project FINISHED

[Alexander82]

I would rather prefer to make that production issue to be solved. It is annoying that I can't keep 4 units in a tc without it stopping production. It should stop only on 1 production (when the unit would have no space to be spawned)

About wisps we might allow them to be produced without a tech requirement as long as you have a temple, what about that?

I still think smithing techs for non tiered units should last more. we already lowered other techs to compensate smithing higher cost.

[Stratego (dev)]

production issue to be solved

this is not really balance problem, but simply a mechanic. please open new topic for it and we can discuss. thanks!

[makazuwr32]

I would rather prefer to make that production issue to be solved. It is annoying that I can't keep 4 units in a tc without it stopping production. It should stop only on 1 production (when the unit would have no space to be spawned)

About wisps we might allow them to be produced without a tech requirement as long as you have a temple, what about that?

I still think smithing techs for non tiered units should last more. we already lowered other techs to compensate smithing higher cost.

i would prefer higher cost for fencing/precision shot techs but lower cost for smithing techs (down to 4/5/6).
Also we wanted to change throwing techs into separate, no depending on sword techs. they should give +1 range and attack for elven throwers. Cost must be same as for other smithing techs.

Precision shot + fencing mastery techs can cost 4/6/8 turns instead (+6 total cost for them).

[Alexander82]

The problem is mostly on archery techs. they cannot be too low or elves will have 10 range +2 too soon

Since these are smithing techs they dictate the cost for other smithing as well.

that's why I prefer to keep other tech's cost lower and keep smithing costs higher

[makazuwr32]

i am fine if we will not touch archer techs specifically but other techs cost must be lowered.

Also another thing that i want to change for balancing is how tier 1 and tier 2 armor/shield techs act:
instead of giving +1 melee armor on tier 1 and +1 piercing armor on tier 2 i want wise versa - +1 piercing armor on tier 1 and +1 melee armor on tier 2 for these techs.

[Stratego (dev)]

Ettins being less invincible
Solution:
a) More costy +1 turns (or +2 ?)
b) OR Reducing its range of attack by 1, and weakening the splash effect (?)
c) OR making other races being able to handle them: human use slingers, undead use curses and new stuffs we made, elves use a new unit slinger against it (alex suggestion)


new option sugestedby alexander, good for me, good for everyone?

[Stratego (dev)]

Orc units in separate buildings, and not in TC
Solution:
a)
...
b) little more specific alternative byAlex:
1. new troll building
2. from caves: all non giant+savage ones move to their own building
3. reamain in caves: trolls, savage units (which are all giants) and minotaurs
4. from TC: everything strong goes into its own race building except troll headhunter and troll axe thrower
c) same solutions "b" except here we make new building for minotaurs too and move them there.


updated alex solution about from TC migration

[makazuwr32]

Orc units: i agree with b with few exeptions: caves must be cavalry only building.every non-cav unit must be moved to its own type of building.

As for dealing with giants - c seems fine but a could work as well.

[Alexander82]

I would rather change totally current orcish building structure cause it is becoming more difficult to create a common logic for units to be trained so, since it seems the problem is that some buildings have units that fill different roles, I would probably use a more "human" approach

1 building for infantry
1 building for casters
1 building for cavalry
1 building for giants (or ny kind of monster)
1 building for upgrades

sub unit would be recruited at the same buildings but would require you to have a racial building to recruit them (e.g. uruks would require the uruk tent that would stop being a factory) so each sub should have a specific unit for that purpose only (it might act more like a tower than a factory)

I would like to apply the same approach to humans cause I think that the same problem might apply for their sub (e.g. I build just imperial fortresses cause I can focus on them alone having more or less all the role I need) allowing imperials/warfell recruitment into normal buildings if you have an imperial/warfell fortress

Other races haven't that issue yet but soon might require a similar approach (phantoms are being implemented as a sub in one of the next versions and glades for elves have the same destiny)

[Stratego (dev)]

Orc water units are strongest / too easy to build
Solution:
a) option1: alex suggestion
tc:
- merlock warrior
- merblin harpoonist
- merblin gutter
- merblin servant

not at tc
- merlock leader
- merblin crocodile rider
- merlock chain fighter


suggested solution, tell us your thoughts.

[makazuwr32]

I would rather change totally current orcish building structure cause it is becoming more difficult to create a common logic for units to be trained so, since it seems the problem is that some buildings have units that fill different roles, I would probably use a more "human" approach

1 building for infantry
1 building for casters
1 building for cavalry
1 building for giants (or ny kind of monster)
1 building for upgrades

sub unit would be recruited at the same buildings but would require you to have a racial building to recruit them (e.g. uruks would require the uruk tent that would stop being a factory) so each sub should have a specific unit for that purpose only (it might act more like a tower than a factory)

I would like to apply the same approach to humans cause I think that the same problem might apply for their sub (e.g. I build just imperial fortresses cause I can focus on them alone having more or less all the role I need) allowing imperials/warfell recruitment into normal buildings if you have an imperial/warfell fortress

Other races haven't that issue yet but soon might require a similar approach (phantoms are being implemented as a sub in one of the next versions and glades for elves have the same destiny)

I would only expand that by dividing melee infantry and ranged infantry into 2 separate buildings for orcs.

Also in this case i want to make such sub's buildings to be counted as factories still.

[makazuwr32]

(remark: ent worker to laborer: i am little afraid of existing campaign maps might get ruined, so not listed this change)

Easy way to apply this change without breaking campains:
Exchange stats and images of elf worker and ent worker; make ex-elf worker to be ent laborer.

[Stratego (dev)]

good trick!
but do we need that part too for the balance? (i mean ambidextria and stuff)

[Stratego (dev)]

Elves little cheaper techs
solution:
a) armor, shield, bow, sword: 4/5/6 turns cost instead of 4/6/8
b) OR armor, shield, bow, sword: 3/6/9 turns cost instead of 4/6/8 (same total ost but firsts cheaper)

new option is not reducing the total but reducing the first tier upgrade.

EVERYONE: please check the proposed solutions and say something.
If there are multiple ideas to solve, the red ones are the preferred ones, please tell me if the red ones are good for you as a solution or not.
thanks!

daniel

[Savra]

Lastly about that catapult - looks good for me.
Can you make for it also moving form (like human catapults have)?
Corpse fling will be used for no-cooldown aoe poisoning with some damage at cost of corpse nearby.

I figured that being that the unit has legs it wouldn't need a transport form, just give it the same movement speed as the ent demolisher.

[makazuwr32]

good trick!
but do we need that part too for the balance? (i mean ambidextria and stuff)

actually yes. in late game elves loose badly in construction against enemies.

Elves little cheaper techs
solution:
a) armor, shield, bow, sword: 4/5/6 turns cost instead of 4/6/8
b) OR armor, shield, bow, sword: 3/6/9 turns cost instead of 4/6/8 (same total ost but firsts cheaper)

new option is not reducing the total but reducing the first tier upgrade.

EVERYONE: please check the proposed solutions and say something.
If there are multiple ideas to solve, the red ones are the preferred ones, please tell me if the red ones are good for you as a solution or not.
thanks!

daniel

that is not what i would like to see. problem of too costly total blacksmith upgrades is still there. i prefer 4/5/6 but only for armor/shield/sword/thrown.

Lastly about that catapult - looks good for me.
Can you make for it also moving form (like human catapults have)?
Corpse fling will be used for no-cooldown aoe poisoning with some damage at cost of corpse nearby.

I figured that being that the unit has legs it wouldn't need a transport form, just give it the same movement speed as the ent demolisher.

alright than. we will think about.

[Dagravian]

My comments are in orange

Undead siege needed
Solution:
a) Skeleton ball is idea of ramming ball of corpses
b) corpse flingercorpse flinger.png

Both will be usefull

Elves little cheaper techs
solution:
a) armor, shield, bow, sword: 4/5/6 turns cost instead of 4/6/8
b) OR armor, shield, bow, sword: 3/6/9 turns cost instead of 4/6/8 (same total ost but firsts cheaper)


I guess i prefer the (a), they already own a lot of techs to handle, and there are new many to come in future, so i think it will be better to improve their pace

Elves too fragile buildings(?)
Solution:
a)
- can research ambidextria,
- main worker will be: elf worker. (remark: ent worker to laborer: i am little afraid of existing campaign maps might get ruined, so not listed this change)
- thorn bushes ability to grow up [IMPLEMENTED]
- increasing construction rate of wolf den and other towers of elves up to 0%

Well the main question is about their durability, i can't see none of those options helping on that matter, but ambidextria would be nice.

Elf Ent demolisher need range or power
Solution
a) increasse range +2 (?)
b) OR increase speed +1 (?)

Probably both, i would also suggest increased p.armor and a passive ent regen for them

Orc regeneration be smaller in range and power (and/or not for all orc race units?)
Solutions
a)
- orc shaman (now has 50% regen - remove this ablility, and giving only normal heal)
- troll shaman (now has 100% regen - remove this ablility, and give it troll regeneration enchantment spell)
- a NEW Healer unit should go under subrace with 100% regen spell (what unit and under which subrace?)
b) ?


You know what is my opinion here.


Orc units in separate buildings, and not in TC
Solution:
a)
- giants having their own building, and build them only there.
- minotaurs having their own building, and build them only there.
- goblins having their own building, and build them only there.
- trolls having their own building, and build them only there (most trolls, if some needed to be "default" than that is in TC too - eg. troll headhunter?)
- (the below listed water orcs also removed from TC)
- any other?
b) little more specific alternative byAlex:
1. new troll building
2. from caves: all non giant+savage ones move to their own building
3. reamain in caves: trolls, savage units (which are all giants) and minotaurs
4. from TC: everything strong goes into its own race building except troll headhunter and troll axe thrower
c) same solutions "b" except here we make new building for minotaurs too and move them there.


Probably C, but from what i've seen, tech pace is also a problem, so tier/upgrade techs should be removed from TC to their respective factories alongside the units.

Ettins being less invincible
Solution:
a) More costy +1 turns (or +2 ?)
b) OR Reducing its range of attack by 1, and weakening the splash effect (?)
c) OR making other races being able to handle them: human use slingers, undead use curses and new stuffs we made, elves use a new unit slinger against it (alex suggestion)

Well agreed with "C", but "B" also would be nice.

Maybe Orc raptor rider is too strong
solution
a) idea1: give a base +2 attack for all races' lancers aside raptor rider. That should make all lancers more useful. (by Alex)
b) idea2:
- speed 5/5/6 and cost 4 while increasing its other stats (hp and armor mainly, maybe also slight increase of attack).
+1 new melee scout unit
(eg. goblin skeever rider)
or the already planned cheeta archer? unit_orc_goblin_mounted_archer.pngunit_orc_goblin_mounted_archer_elite.pngunit_orc_goblin_mounted_archer_master.png


For raptor itself, It is not a lancer, but a "mounted halberdier", so while orcs don't have a lancer, other races don't have a mounted halberdier... So doesn't make sense put them on the same level.

With that said, i think increasing raptor cost to 5 is enough, as replacement, a mounted melee scout goblin would be interesting, only elves should have a mounted ranged as starting unit. And for lancers in general, the bonus of every lancer should be increased from 150% to 450% for regular mounts and to 750% to big mounts, their current base dmg is ok as they are meant to handle only mounted units, and not a bit of everything like the raptor.

[Alexander82]

I would rather change totally current orcish building structure cause it is becoming more difficult to create a common logic for units to be trained so, since it seems the problem is that some buildings have units that fill different roles, I would probably use a more "human" approach

1 building for infantry
1 building for casters
1 building for cavalry
1 building for giants (or ny kind of monster)
1 building for upgrades

sub unit would be recruited at the same buildings but would require you to have a racial building to recruit them (e.g. uruks would require the uruk tent that would stop being a factory) so each sub should have a specific unit for that purpose only (it might act more like a tower than a factory)

I would like to apply the same approach to humans cause I think that the same problem might apply for their sub (e.g. I build just imperial fortresses cause I can focus on them alone having more or less all the role I need) allowing imperials/warfell recruitment into normal buildings if you have an imperial/warfell fortress

Other races haven't that issue yet but soon might require a similar approach (phantoms are being implemented as a sub in one of the next versions and glades for elves have the same destiny)

I would only expand that by dividing melee infantry and ranged infantry into 2 separate buildings for orcs.

In general I was thinking we should put infantry together for all races who use that kind of division

The reason is that I don't really get why infantry should stay in different places while mounted units stay in the same no matter if they are ranged or not

For example for elven units I've just divided them into ranged and melee regardless they are mounted or not so for orcs I would either divide them in infantry and mounted or melee and ranged but not using 2 different measures for that

Also in this case i want to make such sub's buildings to be counted as factories still.

No, cause they do not produce anything, so they won't count as factories. The same would be for all races. If a building is not directly producing, it should never be counted like a factory.

[Savra]

Here's the skeever riding scouts I was referring to, they could have similar stats to goblin spikers but with higher speed, hp, and a small dodge chance.

[makazuwr32]

Also in this case i want to make such sub's buildings to be counted as factories still.

No, cause they do not produce anything, so they won't count as factories. The same would be for all races. If a building is not directly producing, it should never be counted like a factory.

I would prefer for it to be counted as factory. And keep its original production as well.

I would rather change totally current orcish building structure cause it is becoming more difficult to create a common logic for units to be trained so, since it seems the problem is that some buildings have units that fill different roles, I would probably use a more "human" approach

1 building for infantry
1 building for casters
1 building for cavalry
1 building for giants (or ny kind of monster)
1 building for upgrades

sub unit would be recruited at the same buildings but would require you to have a racial building to recruit them (e.g. uruks would require the uruk tent that would stop being a factory) so each sub should have a specific unit for that purpose only (it might act more like a tower than a factory)

I would like to apply the same approach to humans cause I think that the same problem might apply for their sub (e.g. I build just imperial fortresses cause I can focus on them alone having more or less all the role I need) allowing imperials/warfell recruitment into normal buildings if you have an imperial/warfell fortress

Other races haven't that issue yet but soon might require a similar approach (phantoms are being implemented as a sub in one of the next versions and glades for elves have the same destiny)

I would only expand that by dividing melee infantry and ranged infantry into 2 separate buildings for orcs.

In general I was thinking we should put infantry together for all races who use that kind of division

The reason is that I don't really get why infantry should stay in different places while mounted units stay in the same no matter if they are ranged or not

For example for elven units I've just divided them into ranged and melee regardless they are mounted or not so for orcs I would either divide them in infantry and mounted or melee and ranged but not using 2 different measures for that

I see. Than i'd say for orcs division must be infantry/mounted.

About humans: they currently have building for infantry + throwers, for infantry archers + throwers, for cavalry and for special mounts. What would become with archery range of humans and with that building for special mounts?

[Alexander82]

I am planning as a starter a 3 turn unit scaled on wolf rider (with 3/4 of its stats but no starting armor and speed 6) I'm not sure about the giant rat as a mount though xD

Probably this time a orc could work (even though we haven't mounted trolls yet) sinc we already have 3 mounted goblins with the archer (it will be made as a 4 turns unit with goblin archers stats in terms of attack/range).

Since orcs wolf rider uses a flail the next one could use a sword instead.

[makazuwr32]

I mean maybe keep these specific buildings (uruk tent, imperial fortress and so on) as factories but add their trainable units into original buildings related to them (barracks and stables for humans, training ground and archery range for elves and so on).

I want to keep them as costly factories which should take factory place for balancing reasons.

[Alexander82]

In case of humans we could go either way

humans have, in place of giants, a specific place for exotic mounts (that have a specific additional tech), then we have stables (with tech for cavalry upgrades) and infantry (with techs for upgrades that are shared between infantry archers and melee soldiers) so I think we should use the mounted/infantry logic there (so every tech will go to the same place where you can train the sam units)

[Savra]

As for the factory problem, I suggest we leave it the way it is were each race produces units in their own way,

Think about this, undead have for ranged units 2 skeletons, a phantom, and a wight, and you plan to make a ranged unit factory for these 4 very different units, and also note that you have to figure out a ranged area to suite them that will also line up with the undead style. You can't expect archers to practice in a cemetery nor do you expect people to store decorative pieces of armour in one either, also the fact that undead don't practice so none of this lines up with that plan of splitting everyone's ranged, melee, casters, etc. Up into so many buildings.

The way I see it, orcs should have their buildings split up to support their various sub races, e.g. Goblins in goblin tent, orcs in orc tent, merlocks and merblins in merlock hut (or in a merblin hut), trolls in the cave, giants in their own, shamans in the shamans hut, minitors in their own, and uruks in their own.

This way each race keeps their uniqueness, also not all sub races buildings can do well as a fortification or other being that unlike the imperials fortress they don't serve any other purpose, and what would the point be in making multiple of them when you only need one?

The way we have it right now is fine, and it makes sense, the suggested new way would just throw things off and might be too much of a change for people.

[Alexander82]

I mean maybe keep these specific buildings (uruk tent, imperial fortress and so on) as factories but add their trainable units into original buildings related to them (barracks and stables for humans, training ground and archery range for elves and so on).

I want to keep them as costly factories which should take factory place for balancing reasons.

I think we can use that approach for the mini-megas we discussed some time ago. Mini megas would have a wider range of units to recruit and would require a higher effort to build (so you need more time spent before being able to use them)

[makazuwr32]

I mean maybe keep these specific buildings (uruk tent, imperial fortress and so on) as factories but add their trainable units into original buildings related to them (barracks and stables for humans, training ground and archery range for elves and so on).

I want to keep them as costly factories which should take factory place for balancing reasons.

I think we can use that approach for the mini-megas we discussed some time ago. Mini megas would have a wider range of units to recruit and would require a higher effort to build (so you need more time spent before being able to use them)

And ofc i forgot that these units in buildings will need to rely onto that original factory.

[Alexander82]

As for the factory problem, I suggest we leave it the way it is were each race produces units in their own way,

Think about this, undead have for ranged units 2 skeletons, a phantom, and a wight, and you plan to make a ranged unit factory for these 4 very different units, and also note that you have to figure out a ranged area to suite them that will also line up with the undead style. You can't expect archers to practice in a cemetery nor do you expect people to store decorative pieces of armour in one either, also the fact that undead don't practice so none of this lines up with that plan of splitting everyone's ranged, melee, casters, etc. Up into so many buildings.

The way I see it, orcs should have their buildings split up to support their various sub races, e.g. Goblins in goblin tent, orcs in orc tent, merlocks and merblins in merlock hut (or in a merblin hut), trolls in the cave, giants in their own, shamans in the shamans hut, minitors in their own, and uruks in their own.

This way each race keeps their uniqueness, also not all sub races buildings can do well as a fortification or other being that unlike the imperials fortress they don't serve any other purpose, and what would the point be in making multiple of them when you only need one?

The way we have it right now is fine, and it makes sense, the suggested new way would just throw things off and might be too much of a change for people.

Undeads would use a different approach anyway.

Orcs situation is more complicated since they have already buildings like the swamp dock that have units from 2 different races while these units are basically subraces of orcs and goblins, the same goes for uruks (which are orcs and should belong to the orc tent as well) and currently savages and minotaurs belong to the monster cave together with monstruous mounts (all orcish units have monstruous mounts) and troll giants, their casters are both available racially and by role as well.

If we want to give them some more order and no buildings that is good for everything (which was one of the problems as far as I can read) we should probably change the logic behind and use that of units role with racial units used as a requirement (this is not mandatory but it was a way to both require more effort and give the opponent a way to limit sub units production by destroying racial buildings).

In terms of images I wanted to change already orcish buildings to give them a look more similar to warcraft buildings instead of native americans' tents and some of these (like imperial fortress already do) can have some sort function not related to production (e.g. the uruk tent might work like wolves' den and summoning cheap conscript units with vanishing, or can be given a attack of some kind or anything else)

[makazuwr32]

I would like to keep them as factories still so they won't be for free in terms of factory count.
So you will still need to plan carefully management of recources.

This is crutical on maps with low tc count because it will make people to choose between upgrading and elites production.

[Stratego (dev)]

my 5 cents: i would not restructure orc building structure now. i dont feel it helps balance, so we can do it after balancing "week" if needed - but after a week i will suggest not to - i like the way it is now - feels right.

[Alexander82]

I would like to keep them as factories still so they won't be for free in terms of factory count.
So you will still need to plan carefully management of recources.

This is crutical on maps with low tc count because it will make people to choose between upgrading and elites production.

But if they give no production they aren't free at all since they aren't providing any kind of production.
Especially cause resource managing is needed the structure should not have that kind of problems as they would have a similar amount of buildings of other races.

my 5 cents: i would not restructure orc building structure now. i dont feel it helps balance, so we can do it after balancing "week" if needed - but after a week i will suggest not to - i like the way it is now - feels right.

yes but that should be planned as current situation can't provide a satisfying solution imho.