"1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project FINISHED

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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sun May 17, 2020 8:12 pm

yes but that should be planned as current situation can't provide a satisfying solution imho.
i feel it will be perfect the way you suggested with the current setup (to move this and that unit type to this and that building so not all units will be available in one building/TC)

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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by makazuwr32 » Sun May 17, 2020 8:29 pm

Alexander82 wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 8:08 pm
makazuwr32 wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 7:59 pm
I would like to keep them as factories still so they won't be for free in terms of factory count.
So you will still need to plan carefully management of recources.

This is crutical on maps with low tc count because it will make people to choose between upgrading and elites production.
But if they give no production they aren't free at all since they aren't providing any kind of production.
Especially cause resource managing is needed the structure should not have that kind of problems as they would have a similar amount of buildings of other races.
Stratego (dev) wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 8:05 pm
my 5 cents: i would not restructure orc building structure now. i dont feel it helps balance, so we can do it after balancing "week" if needed - but after a week i will suggest not to - i like the way it is now - feels right.
yes but that should be planned as current situation can't provide a satisfying solution imho.
I meant that they should also provide that production they could make.
So they provide that production and enable it in other buildings. They must be alas 1x1 and costly.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
When you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by Alexander82 » Sun May 17, 2020 8:33 pm

I agree for these to be 1x1 and costly but not to be factories, just that. That is the premise I was starting from...
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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sun May 17, 2020 8:46 pm

if a building is not a factory than that is practically a simple "tech" to invent.

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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by Alexander82 » Sun May 17, 2020 10:17 pm

Yes, with the difference that a building can be destroyed.

Anyway we might just remove the idea of building requirement and keep some buildings as subrace-unlocked towers
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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by Stratego (dev) » Mon May 18, 2020 12:49 pm

elv tech cost reduction suggestion changed:
Elves little cheaper techs
solution:
a) armor, shield, bow, sword: 4/5/6 turns cost instead of 4/6/8
b) OR bow techs add range only, archer damageby weapon techs too cost 4/6/8 -> 4/5/6

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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by Valaraukar » Mon May 18, 2020 2:44 pm

Ents in general are too weak I think, could they have a growth ability added? (like trolls healing over time but not as fast)

Also loyalty is useless, could it be removed and replaced with a general spell resistance tech?

Also at game beginning could orc axe thrower be replaced with goblin archer and skeleton knight replaced by headless horseman for balance at the game start?
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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by Badnorth » Mon May 18, 2020 3:00 pm

Valaraukar wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 2:44 pm
Also at game beginning could orc axe thrower be replaced with goblin archer and skeleton knight replaced by headless horseman for balance at the game st
It gives major disadvantage to other races especially at the beggining so yeah they need to be replaced..
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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon May 18, 2020 7:52 pm

Valaraukar wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 2:44 pm
Ents in general are too weak I think, could they have a growth ability added? (like trolls healing over time but not as fast)

Also loyalty is useless, could it be removed and replaced with a general spell resistance tech?

Also at game beginning could orc axe thrower be replaced with goblin archer and skeleton knight replaced by headless horseman for balance at the game start?
Loyalty will just be removed. We do not see any reason to give for any race for now "generic spell resistance tech".

Ents are not supposed to have any self regen abilities. How ents can regen themselves on some harsh enviroments like stones or desert? Alas elves already got better healer for ents who can heal large amounts of hp for them.

As for starting units replacements we are discussing them for now still.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
When you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by friedrich » Mon May 18, 2020 11:52 pm

Hi i would just comment on the ideas as well and maybe add some points.
At first I m really happy to see all the effort people are making, to make the game better than it already is! I would wish to repeat this balancing stuff regulary, cause by implementing new things there may be new balance issues or maybe now we nerf or improve things to much. At the same time, after the last update its hard to judge undeads and elves cause probably noone played them enough til now to see how they perform with that. So maybe all 2 or 3 months a thread about new balancing changes?

About Humans:
over all pretty well desinged atm i think, can fight always with a fair chance (not against orcs of course),
imperials dont fully get the blacksmith upgrades if i m not mistaken (same with dwarf mithril guard), which is a bit wierd,
the catapult is nerfed too much i think, little bit more attack maybe?
warfell units are a little bit weak i think, techinng for their abilities is maybe to expensive or their effect shoulb be greater
Scout bird is far better than scout dog, not sure if he should be 2 turns or the dog should have more movement, atm the dog is
Slingers are still weak, even as counter to giants i think

Undeads& elves atm hard to judge i think
maybe @elves: town watch unit is pretty insane, a one turn unit with 4 speed maybe gives to much map controll in the first turns, cause on this militia units attack and defense doesnt really matter for taking TCs

Orcs:
helmsmasher unit loses its veteran points after getting elite and master upgrade, without that it could have a purpose and would be a pretty fun to play unit
orc slayer has pretty big impact, maybe it will even out when the other civs get better workers
Hamletback, melee trolls and Oolog Hai are a little bit lost atm cause they are slow and cant get into wagons, so you cannot really use them too efficiently (maybe falling goblins^^), at the same time ranged giants can go into wagons, which is a bit wierd...maybe instead of banning the melee ones just let the giant units fill 3 places of carry capacity (or 2?), but dont exclude them (maybe same for human siege?)
Rock hurler line has too high range, maybe -1 base range or so?
Area damage should be nerfed a bit

Comments the summary post: (cited, notes in orange)

MOST suggested ones:
(including my own ideas too)
Solutions are possible alternatives, not sure which will be used to solve the problem
but the problem will be solved somehow

Undead siege needed
Solution:
a) Skeleton ball is idea of ramming ball of corpses
b) corpse flinger

corpse flinger.png
corpse flinger.png (818 Bytes) Viewed 91 times

sounds good:)

Elves little cheaper techs
solution:
a) armor, shield, bow, sword: 4/5/6 turns cost instead of 4/6/8
b) OR armor, shield, bow, sword: 3/6/9 turns cost instead of 4/6/8 (same total ost but firsts cheaper)

Would prefer a), earlygame of elves is aready pretty strong

Elves too fragile buildings(?)
Solution:
a)
- can research ambidextria, [IMPLEMENTED]
- main worker will be: elf worker. (ent worker to laborer)
- thorn bushes ability to grow up [IMPLEMENTED]
- increasing construction rate of wolf den and other towers of elves up to 0%

Great, the second workerclass of the elves just didnt had any advantages to the entworker.

Elf Ent demolisher need range or power
Solution
a) increasse range +2 (?)
b) OR increase speed +1 (?)

12 attack would still be not much, right?

Orc regeneration be smaller in range and power (and/or not for all orc race units?)
Solutions
a)
- orc shaman (now has 50% regen - remove this ablility, and giving only normal heal)
- troll shaman (now has 100% regen - remove this ablility, and give it troll regeneration enchantment spell)
- a NEW Healer unit should go under subrace with 100% regen spell (what unit and under which subrace?)
b) ?


Well, would make the civs less unique if orcs just have the same healingmechanism as humans and dwarfes and scaledfolks, I would reduce to 33%/50% (orc/troll) maybe



Orc units in separate buildings, and not in TC
Solution:
a)
- giants having their own building, and build them only there.
- minotaurs having their own building, and build them only there.
- goblins having their own building, and build them only there.
- trolls having their own building, and build them only there (most trolls, if some needed to be "default" than that is in TC too - eg. troll headhunter?)
- (the below listed water orcs also removed from TC)
- any other?
b) little more specific alternative byAlex:
1. new troll building [IMPLEMENTED] (also all trolls moved here exeptions below)
2. from caves: all non giant+savage ones move to their own building
3. reamain in caves: trolls, savage units (which are all giants) and minotaurs
4. from TC: everything strong goes into its own race building except troll headhunter and troll axe thrower
c) same solutions "b" except here we make new building for minotaurs too and move them there.

dont understand b) completely, so caves with trolls and extra trollbuilding with trolls? I think monster cave is a good name for things with cavetrolls or ettins in it. But seperating trolls from savage makes sense.

Orc buildings hp and build time
Solution
a) All factories must have x1 multiplier for construction rate and mend rate.
Exeption is carved monster cave (on hills one) - this one must have x1.5 multiplier.
As for hps and armors - lower them for orcish factories down to 30 and 0/6 (with exeption of uruk tent - this one must have 50 hp).

I personally like the carved cave aspect, it let you use the terrain more tactically. btw other civs need maybe some options as well to move through hills


Orc water units are strongest / too easy to build
Solution:
a) option1: alex suggestion
tc:
- merlock warrior
- merblin harpoonist
- merblin gutter
- merblin servant

not at tc
- merlock leader
- merblin crocodile rider
- merlock chain fighter

still let orcs have the best start by far on water or mixed maps (or maps with mountains blocking the ways), cause they can build one turn 4 speed units to get TCs or make even batriders to move flexible over every terrain, other civs need comparable options or other compensation there

Ettins being less invincible
Solution:
a) More costy +1 turns (or +2 ?)
b) OR Reducing its range of attack by 1, and weakening the splash effect (?)
c) OR making other races being able to handle them: human use slingers, undead use curses and new stuffs we made, elves use a new unit slinger against it (alex suggestion)

counter concepsts sound good

Maybe Orc raptor rider is too strong
solution
a) idea1: give a base +2 attack for all races' lancers aside raptor rider. That should make all lancers more useful. (by Alex)
b) idea2:
- speed 5/5/6 and cost 4 while increasing its other stats (hp and armor mainly, maybe also slight increase of attack).
+1 new melee scout unit
(eg. goblin skeever rider)
or the already planned cheeta archer?

again making civs less unique, raptor rider is not that strong i think, they have not the , lancer units are quite valuable, at least in mirror matchups (at least human and undead ones, elves' lancers are bad as most of their melee stuff), the problem was more that it was a starting unit which counters the fast starting units of the other civs. They were removed from that, now orcs only miss a fast starting unit like the other civs

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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by Stratego (dev) » Tue May 19, 2020 6:12 am

Awesome!

Please everyone comment on it and suggest which to make a new problem from.
eg. elf town watch question.

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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by Jerfoxman » Tue May 19, 2020 8:00 am

What does elf town watch do? I thought its was a healer
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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by makazuwr32 » Tue May 19, 2020 8:35 am

friedrich wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 11:52 pm
Hi i would just comment on the ideas as well and maybe add some points.
At first I m really happy to see all the effort people are making, to make the game better than it already is! I would wish to repeat this balancing stuff regulary, cause by implementing new things there may be new balance issues or maybe now we nerf or improve things to much. At the same time, after the last update its hard to judge undeads and elves cause probably noone played them enough til now to see how they perform with that. So maybe all 2 or 3 months a thread about new balancing changes?

About Humans:
over all pretty well desinged atm i think, can fight always with a fair chance (not against orcs of course),
imperials dont fully get the blacksmith upgrades if i m not mistaken (same with dwarf mithril guard), which is a bit wierd,
the catapult is nerfed too much i think, little bit more attack maybe?
warfell units are a little bit weak i think, techinng for their abilities is maybe to expensive or their effect shoulb be greater
Scout bird is far better than scout dog, not sure if he should be 2 turns or the dog should have more movement, atm the dog is
Slingers are still weak, even as counter to giants i think

Warfell abilities are not fully implemented yet. they will have levels (and higher levels will get greater effect) and get specific way to make cooldown faster.
Imperials i think get all effects from blacksmith techs. But mithrils of dwarves were a mistake and later will be replaced with defenders.
Catapult is fine because it is siege unit. It must not be used as anti-unit.
Not sure about dog and bird, maybe later we will update them.
Slingers now are better against giants and only problem at early game is their range.


Undeads& elves atm hard to judge i think
maybe @elves: town watch unit is pretty insane, a one turn unit with 4 speed maybe gives to much map controll in the first turns, cause on this militia units attack and defense doesnt really matter for taking TCs

1 turn cost units are not supposed to be powerful. This unit is fine.

Orcs:
helmsmasher unit loses its veteran points after getting elite and master upgrade, without that it could have a purpose and would be a pretty fun to play unit
orc slayer has pretty big impact, maybe it will even out when the other civs get better workers
Hamletback, melee trolls and Oolog Hai are a little bit lost atm cause they are slow and cant get into wagons, so you cannot really use them too efficiently (maybe falling goblins^^), at the same time ranged giants can go into wagons, which is a bit wierd...maybe instead of banning the melee ones just let the giant units fill 3 places of carry capacity (or 2?), but dont exclude them (maybe same for human siege?)
Rock hurler line has too high range, maybe -1 base range or so?
Area damage should be nerfed a bit

Helmsmasher must loose its veteraning already.
it is not possible to make units fill more than 1 place regardless of its size: Bigass Olog hai or small scout dog - this will require overhaul of code by stratego. alas ranged giants indeed must be banned.
Rock hurler is fine but it must have no area damage in the first place or its attack must be halved at least.

Town Watch unit of elves is 1 turn cost scout + occupy unit.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
When you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by Stratego (dev) » Tue May 19, 2020 8:52 am

Catapult is fine because it is siege unit. It must not be used as anti-unit.
maybe he ment as a siege too weak not anti unit.
1 turn cost units are not supposed to be powerful. This unit is fine.
he said it is too powerful already asking to nerf not to buff -> he says 1 turn unit can conquer many TCs in early game. if agreed we can remove canOccupy abliility.
Helmsmasher must loose its veteraning already
what do u mean? if it is true, it is simply bug, an upgrade of unit should not make lose the collected "veteranity" from the unit should keep effects)
alas ranged giants indeed must be banned
agree
Rock hurler is fine but it must have no area damage in the first place or its attack must be halved at least.
i open new problem item than.

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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by makazuwr32 » Tue May 19, 2020 5:34 pm

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 8:52 am
Catapult is fine because it is siege unit. It must not be used as anti-unit.
maybe he ment as a siege too weak not anti unit.
It can get higher bonuses and range
1 turn cost units are not supposed to be powerful. This unit is fine.
he said it is too powerful already asking to nerf not to buff -> he says 1 turn unit can conquer many TCs in early game. if agreed we can remove canOccupy abliility.
This it trait of all elves as cost for their weakest stats in terms of hp. So it is fine for her. any archer can one-shot her
Helmsmasher must loose its veteraning already
what do u mean? if it is true, it is simply bug, an upgrade of unit should not make lose the collected "veteranity" from the unit should keep effects)
Alex wants to find a replacement role for it but did not yet thus it still keeps it. but we already agreed for like 1-1.5 year ago about removal from that unit veteraning.
alas ranged giants indeed must be banned
agree
Rock hurler is fine but it must have no area damage in the first place or its attack must be halved at least.
i open new problem item than.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
When you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by Stratego (dev) » Tue May 19, 2020 5:43 pm

what do u mean? if it is true, it is simply bug, an upgrade of unit should not make lose the collected "veteranity" from the unit should keep effects)
Alex wants to find a replacement role for it but did not yet thus it still keeps it. but we already agreed for like 1-1.5 year ago about removal from that unit veteraning
not a chance as i lov it - my MTG unit "adaptation" :)

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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by DreJaDe » Wed May 20, 2020 8:01 am

Since I didn't saw it here or maybe somewhere. I just want to bring up the precision shot of elevs being useless.

If I'm right they are used for dealing some dmg to high armored units. If that is still their use then I want to raise a suggestion to change them somehow like them being useless already plus their super expensive cost. I want them to atleast be change into a lower cost.

Well if theyre changed already then I won't continue with the suggestion if I see it okay.

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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed May 20, 2020 8:44 am

several items are implemented.
only 3 left open

all changes uos 20

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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed May 20, 2020 9:44 am

Everyone:
- Orc buildings hp and build time
- Orc regeneration be smaller in range and power
on this 2 i wrote this:

- As other changes are in , maybe this is not that problem now, we can go without changing it, please everyone comment/confirm

please reply.

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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by Badnorth » Wed May 20, 2020 12:00 pm

Confirm?
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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed May 20, 2020 1:19 pm

i mean "do u think these are still needed"? or we can try the current balance without these 2 changes

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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by desatixix » Wed May 20, 2020 2:03 pm

not know, wrote about this here or not, but a new elven mage is immortal: under the form of enta him can demolish almost all HP, but he transforms into a mage and restores HP. Therefore, it can live a very long time. Make either memorizing the number of HP when switching forms, or make a cooldown
haha,the orcs do BAM BAM

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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by Alexander82 » Wed May 20, 2020 4:18 pm

I think that saving hp in that case could be a problem since these units have a pretty different amount of health, maybe just lower max hp of armored form?
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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed May 20, 2020 7:45 pm

indeed ihe must have initial cooldown for transform in both forms.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
When you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by Stratego (dev) » Thu May 21, 2020 7:59 am

2 cooldown is ok - right?

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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by Alexander82 » Thu May 21, 2020 9:04 am

I think that is not needed to add a cd to transform back into elven form, the cd should come into play when you are transformed back into elves form to avoid retransforming back in its sturdy form. If you are in melee and the unit is forced to stay in elven form for 2 turns it should be easy enough to kill it.

Remember that, as a caster, the unit should be affected only by dodge ranged and in "ent" form it should not be affected by any dodge tech nor it should have any dodge at all.
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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by Stratego (dev) » Thu May 21, 2020 9:40 am

ok

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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by Alexander82 » Thu May 21, 2020 10:14 am

I think that in ent mode you should not give it the U_ELF category, otherwise it will be affected by several techs that are categorized like M_ELVEN_BUFFS

it should be treated as a nature unit, thus be affected rather from nature techs than elven smithing.
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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by Stratego (dev) » Thu May 21, 2020 11:57 am

check its json, it was copied from ent warrior so that might be good already.

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Re: "1 week balance for AOF 4 races" Project

Post by makazuwr32 » Thu May 21, 2020 2:57 pm

I'd say give it 3 turns cooldown and initial cooldown for transform (in elf form).
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
When you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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