Technology stealing - OUTDATED

[Sunrise Samurai]

A useful, if absurdly random​ feature in AoS, stealing technologies enabled a player to focus on capturing tcs to make up a research gap between themselves and their opponent. In AoF......an elf player steals the warg riding tech? Elves can totally use this or an orc player steals ballistics? Can anyone think of a way to make this useful outside mirror matches? I think the only time it's actually helpful currently is to miraculously gain a tech (like ambidexterity) that helps you, but you can't research in your race.

[Alexander82]

The problem is in how techs works. If I set that certain units benefit from a certain tech there is no way to set other units to do it unless we manually decide which (e.g. A skeleton archer using elven techs or a human archer cumulating both human and elven archery).

I think we should remove this feature.

[Sunrise Samurai]

For AoF, you're probably right. Sadly it's useless at best, potentially unbalanced at worst. For example, did you know elf archers are still coded to benefit from human blacksmith techs? It is technically possible to steal them, if unlikely, and have the extra +2 attack, range, armor, and pierce armor thanks to an unwitting human enemy giving them to you. Not likely, but possible. And to steal just 1 attack and range upgrade is enough to unbalance a game, which just might happen eventually if you're playing musical tcs in a heavily contested zone.

[Alexander82]

I didn't know that. Probably those techs are set just by unit_type and so they workk for any u_archer (that should not happen only based on random effects). The only reason to keep it might be only for converted units.

[Stratego (dev)]

The problem is in how techs works. If I set that certain units benefit from a certain tech there is no way to set other units to do it unless we manually decide which (e.g. A skeleton archer using elven techs or a human archer cumulating both human and elven archery).

I think we should remove this feature.

I think we could come up with tecs that are common via races, like writing, so this little feature could stay. Eg. Tracking to increase sight, or poisons so all poison unit is locked unless we have it, and so on.

[Alexander82]

So... what tech should be stealable by other races:

The problem it is the strange behaviour this could bring (e.g. poison can't affect goblin cause it is for orcs but might affect humans. Seems a bit strange to me).

In some cases techs might just overlap among themself (e.g. human smithing and elf smithing shouldn't stack but if you steal smithing level 1 it unlocks elf smithing 1 or something like that).

[Sunrise Samurai]

I agree that human and elf smith techs should overlap, except that leaves a bit of a difference in the armor techs.

Some techs, like poisoned weapons, might be interesting as only researchable by one race, but applicable to all races.

[Stratego (dev)]

you must have misunderstand my poison idea:

i imagined a tech called "poisoning practices"
- human: you can not build a poison archer until "poisoning practices" is researched
- elf: can not build druid until "poisoning practices" is researched
- undead: can not invent poisonous byte until "poisoning practices" researched this one is strange because they seem similar **
- orc: can not invent weapon poisoning

**: however dont need techs that ALL races own, it is eanough if we have some race overlaps. so no undeads for this, but an othe comoont tech could be for orc+undead not the other and so on.

[Alexander82]

I think that might just complicate the game

[Sunrise Samurai]

That sounds a little more complicated than what I was going for. My idea is more like this:

Orcs can research poisoned weapons, but nobody else can.

Certain units in other races (and upgrades), say skeleton swordsman, human swordsman, elf swordsman, swords dancer, etc. all gain the skill if you have poisoned weapons researched.

In normal gameplay, the only way these units gain that ability is to steal it.

I'm also thinking elf wizards can use fireball, and human mages can use lightning storm, but the techs are exclusive to their respective races, forcing you to steal the knowledge to be able to use it. Maybe even add lich to the mess here, and let it be able to cast either spell if you steal it first.

To manage this, there should be a way to prevent theft of useless techs, since that would just boil down to our original problem again.

This also begs us to make techs in each race to increase chances of technology theft.

[Stratego (dev)]

Sunrise: i think that is also a game complicter

Alexander: but we already have such techs like Writing, is that a complicater already? i am talking about similar stuff (if u think poison is complicated than drop that, but any other tech might work like Writing works)

[Alexander82]

What I mean is that some of those units doesn't require a tech to be built (e.g. the poison archer).

In the case of orc it is easyer to adapt since they already have the poisoning tech that unlocks an active skill but for elves or humans would become a downside (they can already make those units without a tech).

In the future, tough, we might plan to add more "neutral" skills that can be stolen.

Also some races have already many skills less (mostly orcs and undeads since i'm not counting in upgrade techs) and that would be a downside for humans and elves that would have nothing to steal from those races.

I think that now we should be checking where skills affect another race when they shouldn't (like human smith techs), correct this thing and keep the techs stolen from other races only for converted units (if I steal cavalry armor and I use gems to convert an enemy knight I will apply those bonuses).

[Sunrise Samurai]

Also works with the conversion spell, though it is currently only on lich. For a change from AoS, and maybe an idea to apply to AoS if you like it, could we change tech stealing from capturing tcs to stealing techs when you convert a unit? Like the turned unit gave information. Particularly if it is only on techs that apply to the converted unit.

Seeing as orc slaver is in the vote options already, and I've already put out nymph as a good elf conversion unit, this may be the best way to handle stealing technologies.

[makazuwr32]

Outdated.