Is Divine Right supposed to effect Crusaders?

[phoenixffyrnig]

In the description for Divine Right, it specifically mentions Crusaders (in fact the description starts off exactly the same as the description for Holy Mission, verbatim) , whereas in the Effects on Target it does not mention Crusaders.

Crusader units do not have the "Religious" tag, (perhaps a deliberate and understandable balancing choice even if the wording is counter-intuitive), but one of those needs amending, either the non-religious Crusaders or the description of Divine Right.

My gut instinct tells me that the Crusaders are deliberately kept separate from Religious to avoid the double buff of Divine Right and Holy Mission, but the reality is, if we compare like for like with Merc units then the Crusaders come out pretty low pound for pound due to their extra cost. Yes, they don't have leaving, but they lose that advantage by being random selection. After a bit of recent experimentation, seems to me the Crusaders are a bit lightweight on the battlefield, especially in mêlée.

[Endru1241]

In the description for Divine Right, it specifically mentions Crusaders (in fact the description starts off exactly the same as the description for Holy Mission, verbatim) , whereas in the Effects on Target it does not mention Crusaders.

Crusader units do not have the "Religious" tag, (perhaps a deliberate and understandable balancing choice even if the wording is counter-intuitive), but one of those needs amending, either the non-religious Crusaders or the description of Divine Right.

My gut instinct tells me that the Crusaders are deliberately kept separate from Religious to avoid the double buff of Divine Right and Holy Mission, but the reality is, if we compare like for like with Merc units then the Crusaders come out pretty low pound for pound due to their extra cost. Yes, they don't have leaving, but they lose that advantage by being random selection. After a bit of recent experimentation, seems to me the Crusaders are a bit lightweight on the battlefield, especially in mêlée.

The texting for aura was made as:
"All religious units (priests, knight brothers from monastic orders) in range are affected with encouragement, related to doing the god's work."

Oneffect texting mistakenly is:
"Gives crusaders encouragement and with that - fighting strength, especially in melee. They believe, they are taking sacred role - they are the god's servants. Increases power, mental resistance and melee armor."
By extension it should obviously be:
"Gives all religius units (priests, knight brothers from monastic orders) encouragement and with that - fighting strength, especially in melee. They believe, they are taking sacred role - they are the god's servants. Increases power, mental resistance and melee armor."

Although it may be true, that they were not adjusted enough with recent changes (and were always on rather weaker side), but I wonder if they should really be added "religious".
In this category I originally meant to place for all possible types of religious tied units - so priests, monks, religious orders knights, possibly battle monks from eastern asian religions, or some other regular monk/priest variants. Those, that general population would see as people living in/for the religion.

Without any needed connotation to catholic church/christianity.

Crusaders were normal people, sometimes knights, but only assigned a special war/holy war/pilgrimage/pillage. In general population view (e.g. regular Arabic people) there would be nothing fitting that. Just armies.

So in conclusion - to keep flavour I wouldn't add "Religious" to crusaders, but rather boost "Holy mission" if needed.
If "Divine Right" would be applied to crusaders by balancing reasons, I'd rather just make effect affect both crusader and religious.

[phoenixffyrnig]

Looking closely at their stats, there are a few glaring outlying weaknesses, eg C spearman's low hp, C cavalry's low attack, both C Spearman's and C Halberdier's low boni Vs cav (admittedly they have other boni not normally associated with anti-Cav, but they seem to lose out on their defined role in exchange for rather average utility that is really covered by other units).

I guess part of their weakness is explained by having a much higher mental resistance than other equivalent units (40% and 50%), which would help them if they were stand alone units, but they aren't - in conjunction with the MR brought by Holy Mission, Divine Right and Fervour, this base MR is relatively moot. Doubly so because this only really helps them against an opposing Crusader army.

The obvious trap that needs avoiding is to OP their missile units with multiple buffing. Ironically, it was the possibility of hefty boosts to Crusader missile units that first encouraged me to look into them as a viable possibility. [Backstory - a few months ago I got caught up in the raw power of the Celts, and wreaked total havoc with them until I realised that this proclivity would make it easier for players to counter me because they would know exactly what I was going to do. Since then, I have been heavily experimenting with other plays. I really don't want all factions to be equal, I feel they should all have unique strengths and weaknesses, but they should all be viable, if played right] Atm, I don't think crusaders are viable, but they aren't too far off - big changes aren't needed, just tweaks imo.

Previously you mentioned an abandoned idea of two tiered Crusader recruitment, normal and expensive, or something like that. This would be a useful distinction I feel, possibly by an either/or choice in priory, but also by definition in monastery, ie a 3 turn Call Crusade would actually give one of the 4 turn units - it is a mega building after all.

On a related note, perhaps there should also be a HP boost with the priest upgrade? It's far too easy to 1 shot these guys even with the Prayer tech, in particular missionaries suffer Vs even base skirmishers because of the mounted category

[b2198]

Looking closely at their stats, there are a few glaring outlying weaknesses, eg C spearman's low hp, C cavalry's low attack, both C Spearman's and C Halberdier's low boni Vs cav (admittedly they have other boni not normally associated with anti-Cav, but they seem to lose out on their defined role in exchange for rather average utility that is really covered by other units).

I'm piecing together a big post about the state of anti-mounted units and some suggested changes, which includes them (which will take me a while to finish, since there are A LOT of calculations to do and most of my focus is not currently on that), and I agree they are too weak when compared to armored spearmen, which are the most similar to them in terms of stats and bonuses, and armored spearmen themselves are also weak, so....

I guess part of their weakness is explained by having a much higher mental resistance than other equivalent units (40% and 50%), which would help them if they were stand alone units, but they aren't - in conjunction with the MR brought by Holy Mission, Divine Right and Fervour, this base MR is relatively moot. Doubly so because this only really helps them against an opposing Crusader army.

Agreed

The obvious trap that needs avoiding is to OP their missile units with multiple buffing. Ironically, it was the possibility of hefty boosts to Crusader missile units that first encouraged me to look into them as a viable possibility. [Backstory - a few months ago I got caught up in the raw power of the Celts, and wreaked total havoc with them until I realised that this proclivity would make it easier for players to counter me because they would know exactly what I was going to do. Since then, I have been heavily experimenting with other plays.

Unfortunately for me, who already was formulating lots of plans against your celts

Crusade archer and crossbowman seem in a relatively good spot for me, so yeah, they might become a little too strong if not careful with the buffs to crusaders in general.

I really don't want all factions to be equal, I feel they should all have unique strengths and weaknesses, but they should all be viable, if played right] Atm, I don't think crusaders are viable, but they aren't too far off - big changes aren't needed, just tweaks imo.

100% Agreed

Previously you mentioned an abandoned idea of two tiered Crusader recruitment, normal and expensive, or something like that. This would be a useful distinction I feel, possibly by an either/or choice in priory, but also by definition in monastery, ie a 3 turn Call Crusade would actually give one of the 4 turn units - it is a mega building after all.

Interesting idea, I think I like it.

On a related note, perhaps there should also be a HP boost with the priest upgrade? It's far too easy to 1 shot these guys even with the Prayer tech, in particular missionaries suffer Vs even base skirmishers because of the mounted category

True that. 10hp for their upgraded version is too low, even if you go out of your way to get them to +3/+2 armor (with research in priory for +1/+1, blacksmith buff for +1/+1 and Divine Right aura for +1/+0). Maybe missionaries should also have a little more hp than healers, since anti-mounted bonuses apply to them?

[Endru1241]

Looking closely at their stats, there are a few glaring outlying weaknesses, eg C spearman's low hp, C cavalry's low attack, both C Spearman's and C Halberdier's low boni Vs cav (admittedly they have other boni not normally associated with anti-Cav, but they seem to lose out on their defined role in exchange for rather average utility that is really covered by other units).

Crusade spearman is supposed to be cheaper armored spearman - 2 turn mix between anti-cav and classic anti-building infantry.
Crusade halberdier - similarly, but proper 3 turn.
BTW. they got +25% bonus vs irregular infantry in the pack.
Crusade cavalry is 3 turn knight variant, thus weaker attack.
So spearman is actually a short straw in the random machine. Just like getting crossbowmen or knight is good luck in opposition.

I guess part of their weakness is explained by having a much higher mental resistance than other equivalent units (40% and 50%), which would help them if they were stand alone units, but they aren't - in conjunction with the MR brought by Holy Mission, Divine Right and Fervour, this base MR is relatively moot. Doubly so because this only really helps them against an opposing Crusader army.

The idea was to make them almost fully resistant when affected by Holy Mission. By default it's their important buffer unit.
So that e.g. with fervor added they are at least 100% resistant vs first attempt to convert/immobilise.

I have no idea why opposing army would need to be crusaders to have it in effect though?
Priest, Missionary, Roman senator and Onmyoji are all of different buildings. First two being core and latter two - different factions.

The obvious trap that needs avoiding is to OP their missile units with multiple buffing. Ironically, it was the possibility of hefty boosts to Crusader missile units that first encouraged me to look into them as a viable possibility.

True.

Previously you mentioned an abandoned idea of two tiered Crusader recruitment, normal and expensive, or something like that. This would be a useful distinction I feel, possibly by an either/or choice in priory, but also by definition in monastery, ie a 3 turn Call Crusade would actually give one of the 4 turn units - it is a mega building after all.

Unfortunately there is no way to affect any randomly produced units that much.
I believe the whole concept in game engine is a little weird.
You define random productions in unit json and it ties together unit with the same prodGroup.
Whenever you try to produce, summon, possibly transform into (haven't checked) ANY of the units with the same prodGroup - random production kicks in.
There is no further changes allowed.
So the only thing that could be done is having initial, selectable production, like Crusade Call be cheaper or pricier.

On a related note, perhaps there should also be a HP boost with the priest upgrade? It's far too easy to 1 shot these guys even with the Prayer tech, in particular missionaries suffer Vs even base skirmishers because of the mounted category

Not really related imho, but it is something to consider.
Both actually.
Missionary vs Priest was a little fairer when elephants killed priests with area damage. Now missionary only has disadvantages in damage.
Upgraded hp could be used too, especially when light cav 3rd upgrade will come to the game.
E.g. 13HP for upgraded priest, so that elite cav would still need blacksmith or 3rd upgrade if enemy invested in prayer.

[b2198]

Unfortunately there is no way to affect any randomly produced units that much.
I believe the whole concept in game engine is a little weird.
You define random productions in unit json and it ties together unit with the same prodGroup.
Whenever you try to produce, summon, possibly transform into (haven't checked) ANY of the units with the same prodGroup - random production kicks in.
There is no further changes allowed.
So the only thing that could be done is having initial, selectable production, like Crusade Call be cheaper or pricier.

What about splitting them into 2 prodGroups, one for the weaker ones, and another for the stronger ones, then having 3 different "random units", one trainable in monastery with cost 3 and prodGroup of the stronger ones, another trainable in priory with cost 3 and prodGroup of the weaker ones, and a final one trainable in priory with cost 4 and prodGroup of the stronger ones?

[Endru1241]

Unfortunately there is no way to affect any randomly produced units that much.
I believe the whole concept in game engine is a little weird.
You define random productions in unit json and it ties together unit with the same prodGroup.
Whenever you try to produce, summon, possibly transform into (haven't checked) ANY of the units with the same prodGroup - random production kicks in.
There is no further changes allowed.
So the only thing that could be done is having initial, selectable production, like Crusade Call be cheaper or pricier.

What about splitting them into 2 prodGroups, one for the weaker ones, and another for the stronger ones, then having 3 different "random units", one trainable in monastery with cost 3 and prodGroup of the stronger ones, another trainable in priory with cost 3 and prodGroup of the weaker ones, and a final one trainable in priory with cost 4 and prodGroup of the stronger ones?

Possible.
In such case what about crusade leader - leave him with only weaker ones or add another ability costing more money units for stronger ones?

Plus all of them would need to be boosted, as currently we are getting average cost of 3.2 (15% for 3 turn warrior, 10% for 4 turn elite warrior, 15% for 3 turn horseman, 8% for 5 turn knight, 15% for 2 turn spearman, 10% for 3 turn halberdier, 18% for 3 turn archer and 9% for 4 turn crossbowman) and they are not super strong for that cost, so counting partial cost equivalents it would drop below 3 in later game easily.

[b2198]

Possible.
In such case what about crusade leader - leave him with only weaker ones or add another ability costing more money units for stronger ones?

Probably adding another ability would make more sense then, costing 4 instead of 3, I think.

Plus all of them would need to be boosted, as currently we are getting average cost of 3.2 (15% for 3 turn warrior, 10% for 4 turn elite warrior, 15% for 3 turn horseman, 8% for 5 turn knight, 15% for 2 turn spearman, 10% for 3 turn halberdier, 18% for 3 turn archer and 9% for 4 turn crossbowman) and they are not super strong for that cost, so counting partial cost equivalents it would drop below 3 in later game easily.

True.
One idea would be to up spearman to 3 turns and drop knight to 4 turns and adjust stats accordingly, so that both groups would have an average cost equal to the actual cost.

Edit: and halberdier up to 4 turns.

[phoenixffyrnig]

In such case what about crusade leader - leave him with only weaker ones or add another ability costing more money units for stronger ones?

I'd be inclined to say ignore the weaker ones for his summon ability and use only the stronger ones. We've previously discussed how it takes a whole lot of investment to use this function anyway. But at least have the choice of going for stronger ones added

[Endru1241]

Weaker summon could be allowed without research needed.
Or research split to have weaker one much cheaper and a requirement to pricier.
But it still doesn't solve producing them normally.

Truthfully changes for priory and crusaders were considered since right after their implementation, but random production is a thorn here.
Originally I have made 4 summon abilities, so that, unlike in production - crusade leader would be able to summon selected (albeit weaker) unit.
Ability to precisely select counter unit would at least be much better strategically.

Crusaders could be set to amassed theme and possibility to decrease turn cost by tech experimented on, but effect cost cannot be changed by tech (only new effect added or locked by requirements).