Lich phylactery(rework idea)

[MrLich]

A tech that makes liches smart enough to not carry their phylacteries on themselves(the same kind of vibe as vampire carrying stakes) and instead place them in location of choice, and come back to unlife after a hefty cooldown(starts when lich is dead, also dunno if this could be repeatable or one time)

[makazuwr32]

Technically not possible.

[MrLich]

I suppose its balance, understandable

[makazuwr32]

Nono. I mean that for now engine-wise it is not possible.
Will require coding from stratego.

[Stratego (dev)]

what is requires coding? how would it work? i dont undertand.

[makazuwr32]

(starts when lich is dead, also dunno if this could be repeatable or one time)

This part specifically is not possible right now engine wise.

[Stratego (dev)]

i dont undertand why. which part? can u tell me the imagined way of working (assuming i have implemented the required code change)

[makazuwr32]

what is requires coding? how would it work? i dont undertand.

Lich in short asks a summon with timer that will start when summoner will die.
So vanishing/delayed transform will start on summon only when summoner dies or does some other action.

Problem here that i see is next:
1. We have in many cases more than 1 lich. How this phylactery will know who is its actual owner? This will require coding;
2. When owner dies phylactery must unlock abilities to raise new lich. Not before. Also requires coding.
3. Limit to 1 summon of this type per caster. We do not want to have 5-10-50 liches to be raised when one of owner dies so when lich summons new phylactery old one must automatically die. Requires coding.

[MrLich]

I see, thia idea was dumb to begin with

[makazuwr32]

Not that it is dumb. Do not misunderstand and undervalue your ideas.
If it is technically not possible right now does not nessessary mean that it won't be in future.
Also we can think about other ways to implement this. Maybe by modifying idea a bit or like that.

If

idea was dumb to begin with

than i will say this directly.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok so the required way of working as i see from these

1. lich produced
2. lich walks here and there
3. lich places (summons) a phylactery item somewhere on the map.
4. lich walks here and there
5. enemy suddenly kills lich, it dies, a normal lich corpse appears
6. but a counter or something start on the hidden phylactery, and when coundown finishes a lich is spawned from the phylactery (not necessarily the same lich but a lich unit)

am i right?

[MrLich]

I mean theres always balance and implementation to consider, that one might be hard to put in both fronts

[makazuwr32]

Well in this case corpse of lich will be removed.
And yes you are right.

But with slight addition. If other lich dies (not the one that spawned phylactery) than this specific phylactery must be still inactive.

[MrLich]

Yea, but it would have to be bound,since there is a after death cooldown

[Stratego (dev)]

Well in this case corpse of lich will be removed.

removed? why? its body dies there only his soul goes to the magic item to respawn - or not?

But with slight addition. If other lich dies (not the one that spawned phylactery) than this specific phylactery must be still inactive.

sure

[MrLich]

Like if one lich dies, and suddenly turns cooldowns on all phylacteries, thats outside of question,

[makazuwr32]

ok so the required way of working as i see from these

1. lich produced
2. lich walks here and there
3. lich places (summons) a phylactery item somewhere on the map.
4. lich walks here and there
5. enemy suddenly kills lich, it dies, a normal lich corpse appears
6. but a counter or something start on the hidden phylactery, and when coundown finishes a lich is spawned from the phylactery (not necessarily the same lich but a lich unit)

am i right?

Point 3: this phylactery must remember its summoner. Requires coding.
Point 6. Requires coding (separate from point 3).
Also this phylactery requires to be only summon (if lich spawns new old must die). Also requires coding (will be awesome to have this since it will allow for us to rebalance some planned stuff and make it better but not op).

Well in this case corpse of lich will be removed.

removed? why? its body dies there only his soul goes to the magic item to respawn - or not?

I mean that lich right now spawns phylactery on death on its death place. With this change lich will not drop on death but will spawn it via ability. On death this phylactery it spawned only will be activated.

[MrLich]

Sounds as colossal amount of coding

[Stratego (dev)]

"Point 3: this phylactery must remember its summoner. Requires coding."
no it is not.

"Also this phylactery requires to be only summon (if lich spawns new old must die). Also requires coding (will be awesome to have this since it will allow for us to rebalance some planned stuff and make it better but not op)."
one lich could simply make one, easier and more clear.

"I mean that lich right now spawns phylactery on death on its death place. With this change lich will not drop on death but will spawn it via ability. On death this phylactery it spawned only will be activated."
not undertand, clearly:
i say: lich dies and drops a normal corpse (like the horsdeman cropse)

[MrLich]

I think caster corpse is propably best option, not too good to prevent spamming liches for corpses

[makazuwr32]

1. We have in many cases more than 1 lich. How this phylactery will know who is its actual owner? This will require coding;

3. Limit to 1 summon of this type per caster. We do not want to have 5-10-50 liches to be raised when one of owner dies so when lich summons new phylactery old one must automatically die. Requires coding.

This also will be useful for other summons we have or are planning to get.
Right now when we need to limit temporary summon to be 1 per caster we give for it cooldown higher than vanishing on summon but it still is possible to get more than one (delay vanishing aura or vanishing + spell).

"Point 3: this phylactery must remember its summoner. Requires coding."
no it is not.

"Also this phylactery requires to be only summon (if lich spawns new old must die). Also requires coding (will be awesome to have this since it will allow for us to rebalance some planned stuff and make it better but not op)."
one lich could simply make one, easier and more clear.

"I mean that lich right now spawns phylactery on death on its death place. With this change lich will not drop on death but will spawn it via ability. On death this phylactery it spawned only will be activated."
not undertand, clearly:
i say: lich dies and drops a normal corpse (like the horsdeman cropse)

1st. Lich is undead unit. It must not drop any corpse at all that can be raised into skeleton.
2nd. Point 3 i think it is. At least that is my point of view.
3rd. The thing is that either we limit this phylactery summon to be 1 time use ability (cd 600-1000 turns) or give it an ability to relocate its phylactery when needed somewhere closer (and in this case we need the trait that when new one is spawned old dies).

[MrLich]

I dont know if locking the ability after 1 use and adding vanishing only right after lich death can work, or scrapping whole vanishing idea and replace it with other option(starts on cooldown, one use ability), one thing for sure, lich has to be dead in all cases as a condition

[Stratego (dev)]

"1st. Lich is undead unit. It must not drop any corpse at all that can be raised into skeleton."
if that is the problem there can be no corpse too - or a corpse that is not raisable - whatever.

"2nd. Point 3 i think it is. At least that is my point of view."
it would only be required if we let him make more than one phylactery, if only one in lifetime than not required.

"3rd. The thing is that either we limit this phylactery summon to be 1 time use ability"
yes, not by cd 6000, but simply setting to be one time usage, that already exists as i remember. but cd 6000 also good, but look weird in help section.


so as a result this way only one thing needed to code: to start the countdown on the phylactery when its caster dies.

[MrLich]

Seems sound, multiple phylacteries might be hard to make, as previous ones should lose power then,seems tad a stretch in design departament(liches rather dont have more than 1 soul, and definitely dont need more than 1 phylactery for it in standard fantasy setting, but thats a side note)

[makazuwr32]

"1st. Lich is undead unit. It must not drop any corpse at all that can be raised into skeleton."
if that is the problem there can be no corpse too - or a corpse that is not raisable - whatever.

"2nd. Point 3 i think it is. At least that is my point of view."
it would only be required if we let him make more than one phylactery, if only one in lifetime than not required.

"3rd. The thing is that either we limit this phylactery summon to be 1 time use ability"
yes, not by cd 6000, but simply setting to be one time usage, that already exists as i remember. but cd 6000 also good, but look weird in help section.


so as a result this way only one thing needed to code: to start the countdown on the phylactery when its caster dies.

Still can you also put into to-implement list a way to limit to 1 summon of type per unit. It will be useful later for limited summons whom we do not want to be spammable.

[Stratego (dev)]

Still can you also put into to-implement list a way to limit to 1 summon of type per unit. It will be useful later for limited summons whom we do not want to be spammable.

sure after unity version (as that has no proprity)

[makazuwr32]

Good.
Later we are planning to add more summons and the ptoblem is that they are supposed to have not that high cd, fixed range 1 to summon and 1 summon of type per caster. You must not be able to get 2 water elementals at at same time (for example) via single hydromancer.

Problem is that "not that high cd" right now means that cd at most will be same as vanishing (or higher) and you can't resummon unit before cd ends (for example if summon dies before that). If we set cd lower — you can get more than 1 summon.

[MrLich]

I see, so the same mechanic can apply to phylactery, no cooldown if there exist 1 unit, or 1 max unit at a time

[makazuwr32]

Well some cd will still be required but it might be in that case lower than vanishing.
Or even we can set this for permanent (no vanishing) units whom you can resummon when they die. They must die alas when summoner dies (not right after, it takes some time to dissipate magic contract from summoner so this might activate vanishing 2 for them).