Infantry training

[Morningwarrior]

Allows infantry units to gain slightly more health, damage, and armor:
+5% max Hp
+1 dmg
+1/1 armor
Cost:4
the second tier after the first completes, the same bonus but the production time increases.(intense infantry training)
+5% max Hp
+1dmg
+1/1 armor
Cost:6
And for the final,the imperial infantry training
+10% max Hp
+1dmg
+1/1 armor
Cost:8
Only produced on barracks(imperial infantry training is unlocked to produce in castles or imperial fortress after intense infantry training is completed)

[Jerryqian39]

Percentage Heath change might be pretty hard do make

[makazuwr32]

No percentage based bonus health will be given to anyone. Forget about it.
It is possible to give it and not that hard but the problem raises is to balance it. Especially in case of multiple techs since this bonus is multiplicative (if you have 5 techs which give +50% bonus health than total extra health will be not 100% + 50% + 50% + 50% + 50% + 50% = 350% but 150% × 150% × 150% × 150% × 150% = 759,375% and gives an extra +400% bonus; ofc in case of smaller numbers this effect is smaller but it is not nonexistent. I remember problems with ent warriors becoming too tough due to 2 techs for bonus health when each gave +10% hp).

As for everything else — do not like such idea for humans mainly because it will make them more tanky and damaging. They already are second most armored race and giving them even more is not good.
At least on this specific moment of development.

Alas if this tech will affect some specific sub only than it is a different story (but still no percentage based bonus health).

[b2198]

Oh, sorry, wrong variant, my bad, deleting my above posts.

...how do I delete them?

[makazuwr32]

Oh, sorry, wrong variant, my bad, deleting my above posts.

...how do I delete them?

Done.

[Morningwarrior]

No percentage based bonus health will be given to anyone. Forget about it.
It is possible to give it and not that hard but the problem raises is to balance it. Especially in case of multiple techs since this bonus is multiplicative (if you have 5 techs which give +50% bonus health than total extra health will be not 100% + 50% + 50% + 50% + 50% + 50% = 350% but 150% × 150% × 150% × 150% × 150% = 759,375% and gives an extra +400% bonus; ofc in case of smaller numbers this effect is smaller but it is not nonexistent. I remember problems with ent warriors becoming too tough due to 2 techs for bonus health when each gave +10% hp).

As for everything else — do not like such idea for humans mainly because it will make them more tanky and damaging. They already are second most armored race and giving them even more is not good.
At least on this specific moment of development.

Alas if this tech will affect some specific sub only than it is a different story (but still no percentage based bonus health).

This tech will only affect melee and projectile infantry, and I only planned 2 normal techs and 1 imperial, not 5 50% techs, +50% health would be too booming and too appealing, so I only put 5% health, a small bonus plus a little more armor and damage (+1) for infantry. the first tech plus the second would give a total of +10% and 2/2 armor and 2 more damage to produce. I would need the tech to expert infantry, and to complete the second tier I would need the veteran infantry, and for the imperial tech I would need the 2 previous techs, so it doesn't seem like anything out of the ordinary and appealing, but if it's not possible to implement in the game at the moment programming percentage so I will think of another way to regulate the Hp more, maybe +4, maybe, +6? I'll see soon.

[makazuwr32]

No.
Percentage.
Bonus.
To.
Health.
Ever.

As i said it is not impossible to make them but it is extremly hard to balance them.

Numerical bonus health will be fine.

But humans have already good stats so i see no reason why they should have these techs as well. These techs will fit nice for some sub of humans (apart from imperials and warfell, maybe for naval sub since that will add good amount of foot units for using with ships).

[Morningwarrior]

No.
Percentage.
Bonus.
To.
Health.
Ever.

As i said it is not impossible to make them but it is extremly hard to balance them.

Numerical bonus health will be fine.

But humans have already good stats so i see no reason why they should have these techs as well. These techs will fit nice for some sub of humans (apart from imperials and warfell, maybe for naval sub since that will add good amount of foot units for using with ships).

if the problem is really the balance by percentage, then I'll just upgrade to a specific amount of maximum health, humans have some infantry with an Hp almost below average, the ones that save it and their armor technologies, give a technology that makes them a little more resilient wouldn't be that unbalanced, but the value wouldn't be too high, I'll review that

[makazuwr32]

humans have some infantry with an Hp almost below average, the ones that save it and their armor technologies

Which ones from your side of view are "below average" and what do you use as base for "average"?

In general:
Again i am saying that if this will affect whole human army — every single possible foot melee unit — than it is not good.
Even such low values.

Because humans have 2nd best armor values (right after dwarves, and will get in future even more via spells and formations — blessing spell for example will increase attack and armor for melee units for up to +8 both values) and 3rd best health (after scalefolks and orcs, mostly somewhat on par with dwarves).

[Morningwarrior]

humans have some infantry with an Hp almost below average, the ones that save it and their armor technologies

Which ones from your side of view are "below average" and what do you use as base for "average"?

In general:
Again i am saying that if this will affect whole human army — every single possible foot melee unit — than it is not good.
Even such low values.

Because humans have 2nd best armor values (right after dwarves, and will get in future even more via spells and formations — blessing spell for example will increase attack and armor for melee units for up to +8 both values) and 3rd best health (after scalefolks and orcs, mostly somewhat on par with dwarves).

You gave me a little spoiler and got me really excited about blessings and formations... I said below average because if you compare them to other infantry, they have a much lower HP, a goblin archer has more health and attack than a basic archer and an example, by far they are one of the easiest factions to deal with when the match is at the beginning, it's ok after they have the damage and armor technologies they get stronger, they are more resistant, but even so their hp is pretty unfair, a simple even goblin units have even a more decent hp than theirs (this in tier 1), as you said they will soon have blessings and formations, i imagine the blessings will work similar to the abilities of runes that the dwarves have, formations will be similar to the ability of the dwarv sergeant, if so I really don't see much advantage in having this tech, but I also don't think that even the extra Hp value maximum would affect the balance of the game since most of the ages of other factions has good damage along with the infantry bonus destroys most of the human infantry units, regardless of their tier or armor (not imperial or higher level of warfell infantry)

[makazuwr32]

humans have some infantry with an Hp almost below average, the ones that save it and their armor technologies

Which ones from your side of view are "below average" and what do you use as base for "average"?

In general:
Again i am saying that if this will affect whole human army — every single possible foot melee unit — than it is not good.
Even such low values.

Because humans have 2nd best armor values (right after dwarves, and will get in future even more via spells and formations — blessing spell for example will increase attack and armor for melee units for up to +8 both values) and 3rd best health (after scalefolks and orcs, mostly somewhat on par with dwarves).

You gave me a little spoiler and got me really excited about blessings and formations... I said below average because if you compare them to other infantry, they have a much lower HP, a goblin archer has more health and attack than a basic archer and an example, by far they are one of the easiest factions to deal with when the match is at the beginning, it's ok after they have the damage and armor technologies they get stronger, they are more resistant, but even so their hp is pretty unfair, a simple even goblin units have even a more decent hp than theirs (this in tier 1), as you said they will soon have blessings and formations, i imagine the blessings will work similar to the abilities of runes that the dwarves have, formations will be similar to the ability of the dwarv sergeant, if so I really don't see much advantage in having this tech, but I also don't think that even the extra Hp value maximum would affect the balance of the game since most of the ages of other factions has good damage along with the infantry bonus destroys most of the human infantry units, regardless of their tier or armor (not imperial or higher level of warfell infantry)

Do not compare humans to orcs who are supposed to be the most tanky and most crushing race. Yes goblins in our lore are stronger than humans.
Try to compare them to for example undeads. Humans are much better than ud in terms of single unit stats and power.
Or to elves who do not have at all any hp increasing techs. Magic damage is bane of elves.
Or to scalefolks who do not have any armor increase and have rather poor when compared to humans ranged units.
(Side note: main race based on whom is planned whole balancing is not orcs but humans and for orcs in magic update are planned even more nerfs — for example orc strength spell will affect only melee orcs, shooters and throwers will be excluded from it)

Blessing will be a spell for priest. Probably will be locked behind simple 2-3 turns cost research at temple.

Formations will be in much later, after magic update. They will be in 2 forms — 1 in similar to dwarf sergeant manner, 2 in form of legion formations from aos.
(Side note: dwarf sergeant also will get update to its abilities and will get an aura)

[Morningwarrior]

Which ones from your side of view are "below average" and what do you use as base for "average"?

In general:
Again i am saying that if this will affect whole human army — every single possible foot melee unit — than it is not good.
Even such low values.

Because humans have 2nd best armor values (right after dwarves, and will get in future even more via spells and formations — blessing spell for example will increase attack and armor for melee units for up to +8 both values) and 3rd best health (after scalefolks and orcs, mostly somewhat on par with dwarves).

You gave me a little spoiler and got me really excited about blessings and formations... I said below average because if you compare them to other infantry, they have a much lower HP, a goblin archer has more health and attack than a basic archer and an example, by far they are one of the easiest factions to deal with when the match is at the beginning, it's ok after they have the damage and armor technologies they get stronger, they are more resistant, but even so their hp is pretty unfair, a simple even goblin units have even a more decent hp than theirs (this in tier 1), as you said they will soon have blessings and formations, i imagine the blessings will work similar to the abilities of runes that the dwarves have, formations will be similar to the ability of the dwarv sergeant, if so I really don't see much advantage in having this tech, but I also don't think that even the extra Hp value maximum would affect the balance of the game since most of the ages of other factions has good damage along with the infantry bonus destroys most of the human infantry units, regardless of their tier or armor (not imperial or higher level of warfell infantry)

Do not compare humans to orcs who are supposed to be the most tanky and most crushing race. Yes goblins in our lore are stronger than humans.
Try to compare them to for example undeads. Humans are much better than ud in terms of single unit stats and power.
Or to elves who do not have at all any hp increasing techs. Magic damage is bane of elves.
Or to scalefolks who do not have any armor increase and have rather poor when compared to humans ranged units.
(Side note: main race based on whom is planned whole balancing is not orcs but humans and for orcs in magic update are planned even more nerfs — for example orc strength spell will affect only melee orcs, shooters and throwers will be excluded from it)

Blessing will be a spell for priest. Probably will be locked behind simple 2-3 turns cost research at temple.

Formations will be in much later, after magic update. They will be in 2 forms — 1 in similar to dwarf sergeant manner, 2 in form of legion formations from aos.
(Side note: dwarf sergeant also will get update to its abilities and will get an aura)

If it's from the game's own lore that goblins are stronger than humans then it doesn't have portance, the only problem that not only I have with the race of orcs is that they are superior in everything, not just in melee combat or in amount of giant units, okay they don't have siege machine or big area troops, they do have their weaknesses, but they are very compensated with their strengths And about this tech of mine even if a minimum amount of Hp max is added 2-4 can be unbalanced? if that's the case then it could be put Mental resistance (5% maximum) or just add +2 damage and +1 for armor, whichever is better, another tech for the barracks would be nice and not just have infantry improvement.

[makazuwr32]

In first planned big update — buildings update — orcs will get another major weakness — poor fortifications.
Their volcano will still be kept as good tanking building but not the best one.
They will loose range for their towers (base range from 5 to 4, max range from 9 to 6 for stone shelters, base range 5 and max range 7 for volcano, it also will affect their range for magmatic bullet attack; goblin watch towers will have better attack range but they do not have carry capacity). They will have one of worst workers and laborers and rather glassy factories (tent ones at least) which would be one of few which you can destroy fairly easy with shooters.
In short they will be somewhat on par with elves (but elves will still be slightly better due to better workers and special abilities of fortifications) and only scalefolks will be even worse than orcs.

No estimated release date yet for that though since we still need to give proper siege units for scalefolks and undeads (gargoyles).

Also i can't agree that orcs are superior in everything.
Humans, elves, dwarves and undeads (planned ones alas here) have much better air units.
Humans, elves, dwarves have much better ranged units.
Humans, dwarves have much better armor (that is planned to be improved even more via spells and abilities).

Orcs also are planned to get further nerfs to them in magic update when we will divide main spell ppwer of them — orc shaman spells (orc strength, double strike, trample) — between 3 casters in place of 1 (one of which will be locked behind sub); orc strength spell also will affect only melee units — there will be separate strength spells for shooters and for throwers (less powerful than orc strength, but as compensation true orc strength spell will be more powerful). Alas as compensation they will get more buffs, few debuffs (alas not too powerful), and ability to remove physical dot effects (but only them).

Humans on the other hand will have second best fortifications and second best workers (loosing only to dwarves). They also will get first tower with magic type damage that just ignores enemy defence.

Last but not least is planned nerf of generic giants being exceptionally powerful siege units. They will get nerf to their anti-building bonuses (but that will affect other giants as well including flesh golems, ents and some others). Actual siege will be more profitable to use against tough fortifications and megas than infantries and regular giants.

[Morningwarrior]

There's a lot of news coming, but in the case of this tech that I proposed, it seems that it doesn't have much relevance for it to be implemented, besides that I was wondering if there will also be a spell that healers can use that would greatly increase Mental resistance, but maybe was very op.

[makazuwr32]

In the first place we plan to reduce and not increase spell resistance since higher spell resist makes debuffs much worse to use. And we do not want to give like 200+% chances for debuffs anyway. Some special abilties for specific units to increase their own spell resist or some special anti-mage units with improved spell resist are fine. But not en masse 70-99999% spell resist units.

If every single unit will have even 50% spell resist (and for humans it is possible to get an army with such numbers!) it will make debuff-based gameplay for undeads (which later will be much bigger part than it is right now) close to useless. Which we do not want to.

As for this tech — against orcs this tech will not bring too big difference. But against scalefolks non-heavy shielded unit of humans (warrior for example who currently has when maxed 9/10 armor) will be rather big difference to give extra +2 armor. Their dart shooters have 21 attack and with this bonus they will be able to deal 9 damage (and if unit will be buffed with blessing that gives +6 armor on average than down to 3 damage).

Or imperial shielder against glade aegis:
Maxed aegis has 52 attack while current maxed imperial shielder has 28 p.armor. He for sure will get extra armor in magic update by blessing (simply because important unit and it is wise to make him even more tough) so another +6 armor is guaranteed for total 34 p.armor. And you want to increase this value by another +3 so he will have 37 p.armor? Unit with 220 hp and 37 p.armor? It is on the level of dwarves! Hell no.
Imperial ranged units with 15 armor also will be literally unkillable by any non-skirmisher units.

Unless cost of these techs will be like 15/30/45 turns no.

Discussion is closed.