Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi) — ANSWERED

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Elrond
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Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi) — ANSWERED

Post by Elrond »

Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi)
Desc: Born to serve and protect Slann (Katak) starmaster from malice opponents.
Build:snake pit
Cost:3
Hp:50
Atk:12
Rng:4
Spd:4, plain 1, desert 1, water 1
Arm:0
P.Arm:2
Res:30%
Actions:2
Bonus:
Detect assassin
Spitting venom 30 dps (Poison: effective: 3 turns)
200% flyer , foot
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makazuwr32
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Re: Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi)

Post by makazuwr32 »

I assume that speed on plains, desert and water tiles is 1, right?
So it can move with speed 4 only on roads and forest?

200% bonus to foot and flyers is no. Unless you want to increase its cost (without other stats changes) up to 8 turns.

Decrease its attack range to 3.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi)

Post by Hyuhjhih »

How about a death touch unit?

Stats

Cost 3
Hp 10
Att 3 (death touch)
Rng 1
Arm 0/0
Speed 2

Stealth units, can see stealth units

Produced at snake pit.
Requires some tech like writing.

Category: foot, misc
LIE = Love Is Eternal.

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Savra
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Re: Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi)

Post by Savra »

Slann might fit better as a sub faction for scaledfolks, main race I feel has enough sub groups already.

Also the Shinobi could work paired with the gorgon's in the serpentine sub group.
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Re: Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi)

Post by makazuwr32 »

For cost 4 only i can allow death touch to humans. Other races will require at least double cost of that (or higher) for sub unit with limited death touch (no targeting buildings, some restrictions to other possible targets or some disadvantages for unit itself when compared to human assassin).

Human assassin as being rather cheap on-hit wonder unit is exclusive to humans.

Other races for cost 7 and less death touch unit will not get for sure.

Well i can allow for cost 4 for other races one-hit wonder non-stealth non-carriable by any means (including buildings, can't act while garrisoned) unit with hp less than 30 and speed 1 on all terrains. No armor.
But i wonder if anybody will use such unit.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Elrond
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Re: Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi)

Post by Elrond »

makazuwr32 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:05 pm For cost 4 only i can allow death touch to humans. Other races will require at least double cost of that (or higher) for sub unit with limited death touch (no targeting buildings, some restrictions to other possible targets or some disadvantages for unit itself when compared to human assassin).

Human assassin as being rather cheap on-hit wonder unit is exclusive to humans.

Other races for cost 7 and less death touch unit will not get for sure.


Well i can allow for cost 4 for other races one-hit wonder non-stealth non-carriable by any means (including buildings, can't act while garrisoned) unit with hp less than 30 and speed 1 on all terrains. No armor.
But i wonder if anybody will use such unit.
I don't wish the Shinobi to have death touch but able to detect assassin and use the range to kill it. Shinobi is to find and counter assassin. Shinobi no need to be stealth.
Shinobi should be slow because meticulous check every rough terrain as advance unit to detect ambushers (except road, desert and plain). If Shinobi can mount Gorgon would be great +2 speed flyer
Shinobi able to counter attack from air and foot hence offer 50% flyer , foot look reasonable.
Shinobi have 2 action mean to detect and eliminate the threat. Duty above everything for Shinobi
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Re: Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi)

Post by makazuwr32 »

Elrond wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:58 pm
makazuwr32 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:05 pm For cost 4 only i can allow death touch to humans. Other races will require at least double cost of that (or higher) for sub unit with limited death touch (no targeting buildings, some restrictions to other possible targets or some disadvantages for unit itself when compared to human assassin).

Human assassin as being rather cheap on-hit wonder unit is exclusive to humans.

Other races for cost 7 and less death touch unit will not get for sure.


Well i can allow for cost 4 for other races one-hit wonder non-stealth non-carriable by any means (including buildings, can't act while garrisoned) unit with hp less than 30 and speed 1 on all terrains. No armor.
But i wonder if anybody will use such unit.
I don't wish the Shinobi to have death touch but able to detect assassin and use the range to kill it. Shinobi is to find and counter assassin. Shinobi no need to be stealth.
Shinobi should be slow because meticulous check every rough terrain as advance unit to detect ambushers (except road, desert and plain). If Shinobi can mount Gorgon would be great +2 speed flyer
Shinobi able to counter attack from air and foot hence offer 50% flyer , foot look reasonable.
Shinobi have 2 action mean to detect and eliminate the threat. Duty above everything for Shinobi
These are my objections:
makazuwr32 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:24 pm I assume that speed on plains, desert and water tiles is 1, right?
So it can move with speed 4 only on roads and forest?

200% bonus to foot and flyers is no. Unless you want to increase its cost (without other stats changes) up to 8 turns.

Decrease its attack range to 3.
So you want for it to have speed 1 everywhere except plains, desert and snow, right?
I can't allow for 3 turn cost unit to have such good possibility to cross any terrain (even with speed 1). In this case speed will be 3 and cost will be 5 (4 if 1 action).

As for bonuses — use same bonuses as darter units have — +30% to foot non-giant units, +40% to flyers.

Gorgon? You mean that deadly looking bull from heroes 3, right? It does not fly.

Also remove stealth from it. Can see stealth is enough.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Elrond
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Re: Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi)

Post by Elrond »

makazuwr32 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:45 am
Elrond wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:58 pm
makazuwr32 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:05 pm For cost 4 only i can allow death touch to humans. Other races will require at least double cost of that (or higher) for sub unit with limited death touch (no targeting buildings, some restrictions to other possible targets or some disadvantages for unit itself when compared to human assassin).

Human assassin as being rather cheap on-hit wonder unit is exclusive to humans.

Other races for cost 7 and less death touch unit will not get for sure.


Well i can allow for cost 4 for other races one-hit wonder non-stealth non-carriable by any means (including buildings, can't act while garrisoned) unit with hp less than 30 and speed 1 on all terrains. No armor.
But i wonder if anybody will use such unit.
I don't wish the Shinobi to have death touch but able to detect assassin and use the range to kill it. Shinobi is to find and counter assassin. Shinobi no need to be stealth.
Shinobi should be slow because meticulous check every rough terrain as advance unit to detect ambushers (except road, desert and plain). If Shinobi can mount Gorgon would be great +2 speed flyer
Shinobi able to counter attack from air and foot hence offer 50% flyer , foot look reasonable.
Shinobi have 2 action mean to detect and eliminate the threat. Duty above everything for Shinobi
These are my objections:
makazuwr32 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:24 pm I assume that speed on plains, desert and water tiles is 1, right?
So it can move with speed 4 only on roads and forest?

200% bonus to foot and flyers is no. Unless you want to increase its cost (without other stats changes) up to 8 turns.

Decrease its attack range to 3.
So you want for it to have speed 1 everywhere except plains, desert and snow, right?
I can't allow for 3 turn cost unit to have such good possibility to cross any terrain (even with speed 1). In this case speed will be 3 and cost will be 5 (4 if 1 action).

As for bonuses — use same bonuses as darter units have — +30% to foot non-giant units, +40% to flyers.

Gorgon? You mean that deadly looking bull from heroes 3, right? It does not fly.

Also remove stealth from it. Can see stealth is enough.
5 turns to build a Shinobi compare to humans assassin every 4 turns. Why for humans had such a great unit while scaled don't. Scaled race been underrated not much uniqueness I can see from existing units. I would suggest 4 turns on par with humans assassin with 2 actions because detect assassin is an active spell. Need action to do it.

Please let Shinobi mount to a flyer (still need to research tech)

Remove stealth is fine just don't get pot shot on Shinobi (50hp) will do
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Re: Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi)

Post by makazuwr32 »

You know that this unit will get another +40 hp via techs, right?
Human assassin can't move through:
Water, mountains.
He has speed 3.

Assassin with one-hit wonder will be exclusive to humans. Period. Same as convert (remade a bit alas) will be exclusive to undeads and spell to damage dragons for large amounts of their hp for scalefolks.

So you want true sight as active ability? Why? I see no reason why this ability must be active when it can be passive one.
Scalefolks have komodo dragon who has this as passive for 2 turns cost and ability to move through water.

No for mounting flyer unit. At least in a way like elves do (transform + sacrifice of corresponding animal).
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Savra
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Re: Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi)

Post by Savra »

Well, about gorgon's they were planned to be snakeman spell casters and not flying units.

About the assassin unit, I agree with makazur on the fact that one hit assassin's are unique to humans like the reworked conversion is for undead, it's one thing that helps the race stand out from the others and is one of the few advantages humans have over other races.

Scaledfolks don't need this, as they do have a lot of things going for them. Most of which aren't even in yet.

For one, no one else has half they're army able to simply regenerate they're hp back, the only ones who come close are orcs but that is only applied to trolls who make up a small portion of the race, later scaledfolks increase they're lizardmans regen up to roughly the same amount as trolls.

Serpentine also have dodges, and will later get upgrades to that, plus they have poison weapons, 2 actions, and very good attack.

Also kobolds have a few additional stuff planned for them to help them stand out more from they're lizardman counterparts.

So generally death touch isn't needed amongst the scaledfolks.
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Re: Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi)

Post by Elrond »

makazuwr32 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:23 am You know that this unit will get another +40 hp via techs, right?
Human assassin can't move through:
Water, mountains.
He has speed 3.

Assassin with one-hit wonder will be exclusive to humans. Period. Same as convert (remade a bit alas) will be exclusive to undeads and spell to damage dragons for large amounts of their hp for scalefolks.

So you want true sight as active ability? Why? I see no reason why this ability must be active when it can be passive one.
Scalefolks have komodo dragon who has this as passive for 2 turns cost and ability to move through water.

No for mounting flyer unit. At least in a way like elves do (transform + sacrifice of corresponding animal).
Well if detect assassin is a passive sure by all means give Shinobi 5 at sight will worth to coordinate attack with other unit to kill the menace. One action is fine and produce in 4 turns. Please consider give Shinobi a slow spell (slow: effective: 3 turns)(need to research to gain ability)
Last edited by Elrond on Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi)

Post by Elrond »

Savra wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:31 am Well, about gorgon's they were planned to be snakeman spell casters and not flying units.

About the assassin unit, I agree with makazur on the fact that one hit assassin's are unique to humans like the reworked conversion is for undead, it's one thing that helps the race stand out from the others and is one of the few advantages humans have over other races.

Scaledfolks don't need this, as they do have a lot of things going for them. Most of which aren't even in yet.

For one, no one else has half they're army able to simply regenerate they're hp back, the only ones who come close are orcs but that is only applied to trolls who make up a small portion of the race, later scaledfolks increase they're lizardmans regen up to roughly the same amount as trolls.

Serpentine also have dodges, and will later get upgrades to that, plus they have poison weapons, 2 actions, and very good attack.

Also kobolds have a few additional stuff planned for them to help them stand out more from they're lizardman counterparts.

So generally death touch isn't needed amongst the scaledfolks.
Yeah I do agree no need death touch for Shinobi or for scaled race. Shinobi's duty just need to detect the menace prehand to coordinate a defence. Shinobi's is to detect early and allow time for prevention measures for core combat unit to advance. The reason why need to be able to mount to a flyer is able to join with scout unit for early warning
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Re: Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi)

Post by Elrond »

makazuwr32 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:23 am You know that this unit will get another +40 hp via techs, right?
Human assassin can't move through:
Water, mountains.
He has speed 3.

Assassin with one-hit wonder will be exclusive to humans. Period. Same as convert (remade a bit alas) will be exclusive to undeads and spell to damage dragons for large amounts of their hp for scalefolks.

So you want true sight as active ability? Why? I see no reason why this ability must be active when it can be passive one.
Scalefolks have komodo dragon who has this as passive for 2 turns cost and ability to move through water.

No for mounting flyer unit. At least in a way like elves do (transform + sacrifice of corresponding animal).
Do consider small map is depend on raw hp do you think have time to get extra 40 hp from research...hence train a Shinobi is ready for the job not after service.
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Re: Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi)

Post by Savra »

Elrond wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:46 am
Savra wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:31 am Well, about gorgon's they were planned to be snakeman spell casters and not flying units.

About the assassin unit, I agree with makazur on the fact that one hit assassin's are unique to humans like the reworked conversion is for undead, it's one thing that helps the race stand out from the others and is one of the few advantages humans have over other races.

Scaledfolks don't need this, as they do have a lot of things going for them. Most of which aren't even in yet.

For one, no one else has half they're army able to simply regenerate they're hp back, the only ones who come close are orcs but that is only applied to trolls who make up a small portion of the race, later scaledfolks increase they're lizardmans regen up to roughly the same amount as trolls.

Serpentine also have dodges, and will later get upgrades to that, plus they have poison weapons, 2 actions, and very good attack.

Also kobolds have a few additional stuff planned for them to help them stand out more from they're lizardman counterparts.

So generally death touch isn't needed amongst the scaledfolks.
Yeah I do agree no need death touch for Shinobi or for scaled race. Shinobi's duty just need to detect the menace prehand to coordinate a defence. Shinobi's is to detect early and allow time for prevention measures for core combat unit to advance. The reason why need to be able to mount to a flyer is able to join with scout unit for early warning
Well, issue here is scaledfolks don't necessarily need this function, as they have pretty good stealth/scout units anyway, also I believe scaledfolks will be the last to need anti stealth units considering all foot kobolds can now get an upgrade to turn invisible once (1 time), later they will get a unit or ability for witch doctor to allow a kobold the use of that ability again.

The invisibility has no vanishing, and disappears after unit attacks or uses an ability.
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Re: Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi)

Post by Elrond »

Savra wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:33 pm
Elrond wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:46 am
Savra wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:31 am Well, about gorgon's they were planned to be snakeman spell casters and not flying units.

About the assassin unit, I agree with makazur on the fact that one hit assassin's are unique to humans like the reworked conversion is for undead, it's one thing that helps the race stand out from the others and is one of the few advantages humans have over other races.

Scaledfolks don't need this, as they do have a lot of things going for them. Most of which aren't even in yet.

For one, no one else has half they're army able to simply regenerate they're hp back, the only ones who come close are orcs but that is only applied to trolls who make up a small portion of the race, later scaledfolks increase they're lizardmans regen up to roughly the same amount as trolls.

Serpentine also have dodges, and will later get upgrades to that, plus they have poison weapons, 2 actions, and very good attack.

Also kobolds have a few additional stuff planned for them to help them stand out more from they're lizardman counterparts.

So generally death touch isn't needed amongst the scaledfolks.
Yeah I do agree no need death touch for Shinobi or for scaled race. Shinobi's duty just need to detect the menace prehand to coordinate a defence. Shinobi's is to detect early and allow time for prevention measures for core combat unit to advance. The reason why need to be able to mount to a flyer is able to join with scout unit for early warning
Well, issue here is scaledfolks don't necessarily need this function, as they have pretty good stealth/scout units anyway, also I believe scaledfolks will be the last to need anti stealth units considering all foot kobolds can now get an upgrade to turn invisible once (1 time), later they will get a unit or ability for witch doctor to allow a kobold the use of that ability again.

The invisibility has no vanishing, and disappears after unit attacks or uses an ability.
Hmm Savra do you mean this upcoming upgrade the kobold have such ability of invisibility but do this unit can swim in water or mountain walk there is no use solely for land unit. Terrain decide major factor how we build our units. Furthermore over tasking on kobold witchdoctor is not wise. We need to balance other usage of type of troop. Btw please do enable troop to embark/disembark from turtleman and spiked turtle at coast line. It is pretty silly ship enable to but not the turtleman and spiked turtle.
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Re: Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi)

Post by Savra »

Generally, my original plan for the witch doctor was to make it strictly support, but some more kobold support casters could probably get it.

Anyway, as for turtlefolk, that's a issue I can fix.

As for terrain difference, yes this may be true, but you also have to consider orcs and undead don't exactly have flying scouts either. If we are to consider the gargoyles as flying scouts, you might also consider the saurians as well, since they have 5 speed, and decent sight (6), so as a cheap flying scout they're perfect.

Also later more saurians will be added including a special flying beast along with them.
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Re: Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi)

Post by Elrond »

Savra wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:45 am Generally, my original plan for the witch doctor was to make it strictly support, but some more kobold support casters could probably get it.

Anyway, as for turtlefolk, that's a issue I can fix.

As for terrain difference, yes this may be true, but you also have to consider orcs and undead don't exactly have flying scouts either. If we are to consider the gargoyles as flying scouts, you might also consider the saurians as well, since they have 5 speed, and decent sight (6), so as a cheap flying scout they're perfect.

Also later more saurians will be added including a special flying beast along with them.
Cool Savra, I look forward the new update, will need to rebalance some stat on existing units. Compare with Elves fairy(1t) flyer, Kobold ghost hunter (1t) please enable to swim. General question any chance the new update will be available on this year September 21.
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Re: Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi)

Post by makazuwr32 »

New update will be sooner than even august.

As for kobold ghost hunter unit — it is wrong to compare it with fairy or scout bird. Better to compare it with town watch and human militia. No water speed for it.

Alas scalefolks later will get some good scout and zerg rushing summonable unit.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi)

Post by Elrond »

makazuwr32 wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:57 am New update will be sooner than even august.

As for kobold ghost hunter unit — it is wrong to compare it with fairy or scout bird. Better to compare it with town watch and human militia. No water speed for it.

Alas scalefolks later will get some good scout and zerg rushing summonable unit.
Tell me more about the Lizardman scout and zerg rush summonable unit stat. Now in ocean map hardly to move out the starting island at least after 2 turns (Komodo dragon which can't occupy town)
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Re: Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi)

Post by makazuwr32 »

That summon will not be able to occupy tcs anyway. Alas that unit will be a summon which will blend well with another unit who can give it bonus attack, bonus speed and a bit of dodge counter.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Snakeman hatchling (Shinobi)

Post by makazuwr32 »

Answered.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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