Dwarven ranged units — ARCHIVED

[Sunrise Samurai]

Current stats
Crossbowman
Cost 2
Hp 18
Power 6
Range 6
Armor 1/1
Speed 3
Bonus against infantry and archers

Combo archer/skirmisher with the stats of an upgraded archer. Definitely superior to any other race's basic archers, including elves, due to upgraded stats and high hp.

Rifleman
Cost 3
Hp 20
Power 8 (9 transformed)
Range 5 (6 transformed)
Armor 1/1 (3/3 transformed)
Speed 3 (0 transformed)
Bonus against infantry and archers

Same bonuses, but higher power. Requires transform to gain the missing range.

Here's my proposed stats
Crossbowman
Cost 2
Hp 18
Power 8
Range 4
Armor 1/4
Speed 3
Bonus against infantry and archers

Higher armor​, higher power, lower range. Better for comparing to a skirmisher with powerful crossbow bolts that can penetrate armor.

Rifleman
Cost 3
Hp 20
Power 8 (9 transformed) deals melee damage (better armor penetration)
Range 7 (8 transformed)
Armor 2/2 (4/4 transformed)
Speed 3 (0 transformed)
20% accuracy penalty (15% when transformed) [early guns weren't known for accuracy]
Bonus against infantry (not archers)

Longer range, but less accurate than crossbow. This one is anti infantry only, and can bypass high p. armor by hitting regular armor.

This helps differentiate the two, as well as prevent crossbow from becoming an early game version of headhunter that can outrange or at least equal the range of anybody else's archers without the maneuvering that skirmishers require from AoS and AoF humans. Rifleman is now a formidable unit with high range even in early game, if you're willing to put up with a miss chance.

[makazuwr32]

that what i want to see from dwarves.
Also they can't get increased range from upgrades at all.
Maybe to rifleman give 1 speed in transformed mode but lower his base damage in regular mode by 1.

[Sunrise Samurai]

that what i want to see from dwarves.
Also they can't get increased range from upgrades at all.
Maybe to rifleman give 1 speed in transformed mode but lower his base damage in regular mode by 1.

I'd agree to no range increase, but they'd quickly fall behind in mid and late game. Maybe range increase on the second and third upgrades, but not the first for crossbowman. Rifleman should have separate upgrades, because it really shouldn't increase range, and besides I think it's unreasonable to upgrade gunpowder and crossbows with the same tech. I expect further gunpowder units in dwarves later anyway.

Rifleman speed: I think it's supposed to be dug in, entrenched, and holding aim. This would mean 0 speed. I actually think it's fine.

[makazuwr32]

I thought about 4 line of upgrades for dwarves:
basic weapon upgrades (+1 per tier, both melee and ranged)
gunpowder upgrades (+2 per tier, gunpowder units)
Melee armors (+1/+1 per tier, melee units)
Ranged armors (+1/+1 per tier, ranged units)

Also individual line of upgrades for mechanic/magic units (Golems, Steam Tanks...)

For Crossbowman additional upgrade in barracks that will increase their range by 1-2 (debatable).
For Rifleman additional upgrade that will remove miss chance while increase armor in shielded variant.

[Sunrise Samurai]

Sounds about right. Separate upgrades for range and damage in crossbow, lumped with melee for damage. 2 tiers for range increase, requiring the second and third level of damage respectively. Gunpowder upgrades have a side upgrade train to reduce miss chance by 5% per level (to 0 after all upgrades)

I'd actually lump all armor upgrades together, to encourage focusing on it.

[makazuwr32]

I think side upgrades need 1 tier only.

I'd actually lump all armor upgrades together, to encourage focusing on it.

Maybe here you are right. for living dwarven units only still, magic/mechanic units will still have their own separate upgrade lines.

[General Brave]

You guys make some very good points, especially about the archers being skirmishers. The reason why the Rifleman has one extra range on transform, because he's being steady and focusing. So 15% accurate the regular one and 10% the shielded one? And also bypass armor?

[makazuwr32]

Both forms' attack is counted as melee damage for armors.
No bypass armor.

[Sunrise Samurai]

I'd actually say 20% miss chance regular and 15% focusing. We're planning a 5/10/15% miss chance reduction tech, and I think the final result should be perfect accuracy after all upgrades and skills are combined. Count all damage as melee for rifleman.

Yes, living units only, all armor upgrades are combined.

[makazuwr32]

uhm sunrise i am talking about only 1 tier of special upgrade for rifleman so there won't be 15/10/5/0%
15% to miss and 0% after upgrade as well as additional armor in second stance.

The problem with additional upgrades with tiers is that they take valuable time while giving not so good output. Best example is Dodges for elves: yes with final levels of they are powerful but it takes 18 turns to research ranged dodge and additional 18 turns for melee dodge. I'm not mentioning that dodge counter is the least used one of all 3.
Only blacksmith upgrades must have tiers. all others must be 1 tier only.

[Sunrise Samurai]

I see your point. Combined the accuracy fix with the upgrade here
viewtopic.php?f=131&t=5533

[makazuwr32]

For gunpowder units i added ther own upgrades.

[General Brave]

Write down what you guys wrote.

[Sunrise Samurai]

It's all here.
viewtopic.php?f=131&t=5533&p=60880#p60880

Crossbowmen get the damage upgrades with melee units, and a separate upgrade for range increase later. Riflemen get the blanket gunpowder upgrades for +2 power per upgrade, and a separate upgrade to remove 15% accuracy penalty.

20% base miss chance, so aiming is always more reliable at 5% less.

Base stats are in original post.

[Midonik]

I dont think crossbow should have low range, crossbows have quite good range.
Just make crossbow normal archer-like unit with 6 basic range, while rilfemen will be little diffrent-lets make ralfie shoot albitly with 3 turn cooldown, able to shoot only to flesh and blood units that that deals 14 damage to them and is effected by normal armor (or no armor at all, mayby with albitly it's possible), with same miss chance and range as you wrote.

[Sunrise Samurai]

We do have to consider that elf archers need to be stronger. A 6 power, 6 range archer at 2 cost is equal in strength, with more life and armor to make it definitely better. I'd say for that plan it's best to go with 5 power and 5 range, as human archers.

[makazuwr32]

Personally i like more first your design Sunrise.
low range, high power, high p.armor.

[Sunrise Samurai]

Edited proposed crossbow. I found the high power and 2 melee armor meant it was just too dangerous to melee, so I reduced both slightly.

[NikolaTheEinstein]

Will changing gunners to melee damage affect their performance against flying units?

[makazuwr32]

We can depend that for each unit separately.
Also orc axe throwers deal melee damage but that don't affect their ability to deal full damage to flying units as well.

[NikolaTheEinstein]

As long as gunners can still deal damage to flying units then these changes seem fine. If they can't, then you're setting the dwarves up for failure against flying units. What good is a short range crossbow against the mobility of a flying unit? Green dragons would chew them up.

To reiterate, the changes sound fine. Just make sure that gunners can still effectively fight flying units

[makazuwr32]

Personally i hope that dwarves will get cheap anti-flying helicopters (3 turns cost, 5-6 base damage, 200-300% bonus to flying units)

[General Brave]

Done what you wanted.

[NikolaTheEinstein]

What would really be cool is some sort of black powder flak cannon that can shred air units, but does jack against everything else

[General Brave]

Anti-air guns?

[makazuwr32]

Helicopter
Anti air flying ranged unit with area damage.

[makazuwr32]

Archived