Storm Dragon

[Skelegonsans]

These are the stats / image that were agreed upon.

A purple-scaled dragon that can control lightning.

Has the same ''Lightning Strike'' spell as elvish spellcaster, but with a few differences:
- Damage is 10;
- Cooldown is 4;
- Infilcts a 1-speed slow that lasts for 2 turns on all enemies hit;
- Name is "Lightning Breath".
However if this spell is too complicate to make then just make the dragon have the exact same spell as the elvish spellcaster.

Stats:

Storm Dragon (Cost: 5 / Flying) (Can use Lightning Breath.)
Hp 23
Atk 11
Arm./p.arm. 1/1
Range 1
Speed 6
Sight 8
Description: This purple-scaled dragon has the amazing powers of lightning under its control. It is fast and can strike in the blink of an eye.

Good?

[MightyGuy]

Oh, This is a cheap dragon. Cool! I like it!

[Alpha]

For a dragon it is cheap, can be vital as well in combat.

[Skelegonsans]

I consider 6 to be the average cost for an average dragon. So yeh, its kinda cheap, but the stats arent the best if u compare with other dragons. So imo it is balanced

[MightyGuy]

I consider 6 to be the average cost for an average dragon. So yeh, its kinda cheap, but the stats arent the best if u compare with other dragons. So imo it is balanced

I Agree but WORKER1212 Want this unit make a Cheap

[Skelegonsans]

As i said 5 is already cheap for a dragon, and for these stats i believe 5 is good (4-6 archers easily take care of it i think.)
But maybe lower speed to 7-6...

[rikoargatha]

The stat is ok, but I think the sight must be raised to 8/9 if the speed is 8

[Skelegonsans]

True that, make its sight 8

[General Brave]

Can someone make a draft of an image.

[LordOfAles]

Can you lower speed to 7? This unit is destructive against workers and mages/healers/shamans etc.

[makazuwr32]

better to 6 because there is no units with speed 7 and i don't want to see ones.

[Skelegonsans]

Not really, look at its stats, they are crap compared to most fighter units. This unit is more for harass and a bit of scouting rather than direct combat. While it's also supposed to be a very fast unit. So I'd say to make its speed and sight 7.

[Skelegonsans]

better to 6 because there is no units with speed 7 and i don't want to see ones.

Human ornithoper has 10 speed and 21 attack. And has the same cost as this unit.

[General Brave]

It's for harassing.

[Skelegonsans]

which is the same purpose of this unit. It is fast and deals decent damage (at least its spell does, and it gives a stun too). Actually I even think its attack is a bit low and it could be a bit useless.

Like, imagine if there are 4 or 5 human archers trying to take down one of these. One arrow will deal 4 damage, and that's without any upgrades and disconsidering any attack bonuses the archers might have against the dragon. The dragon will only be able to kill them one by one (its spell deals 10 damage which is not enough to instakill an archer) and meanwhile the archers shoot it down. It will be dead by 3 turns at max without having done much. It'll be good against melee units though, because it's a flying unit, but that's pretty much it.

[makazuwr32]

Still don't like his speed and cost because of ability:
easily kills worker packs with them.

Also don't compare this dragon meat tank with easy killable (even with 1 archer!) ornithopter.

If you want to keep stats than increase cost by 1, i you want to keep cost than remove armor and reduce speed to 6.

[Skelegonsans]

Don't know what you mean with "meat tank" since it literally has 1 p.armor and 23 hp. three archers can kill it easily if they are spreaded out.
Like I said this unit isn't made to kill, it's made only to harass. It doesn't have the damage to kill stronger units with only 11 attack and dealing 10 damage with its breath which has a 4 turn cooldown. Plus a group of archers will get rid of it really easily.

I still think these stats are fairly balanced. The most I'd do here is maybe reduce its HP to 20 to make it a bit more frail but that's it. I think it's already good this way. And then again, even if it proves to be unbalanced (which I don't think it will) we can always change it later.

[Skelegonsans]

Also I think that it's better if the stun effect slows for one turn instead of disabling completely for one turn. Maybe a 2 speed slow for one turn is better (because an AoE curse attack isn't very balanced, lol).

[makazuwr32]

1. human archers maybe are good against this treat but what about orcs and undeads? Orcs early have goblins with miss chance for protection from air and axe throwers with low range and undeads have only their weak archers with 10 hp and even worse miss chance and fire skull throwers with (again!) 10 hp and low range, Both races will have really hard time of dealing with this dragon. Same problem is with scaledfolk: their archers and slingers are not that good to deal with this dragon fast.
2. You think as purpose of this dragon is to kill fighter units. No. He is for harassing and best way of that is to kill workers. Human, orc, ent workers will die from his spell easily. And undead, dwarven and scaledfolk will gain great damage (this is especially painful for undeads because their liches have 9 hp and they don't have any scources of healing so next thunder will just kill wounded workers of undeads). Elves also have problems with them because their warriors (anti cav units) and druids have 10 hp as well.
3. Add to him kobold slinger with power range 1 and you will easily kill even elven archers in one turn.

As for "meat tank" i meant that he can survive many shots from enemy archers while ornithopter usually dies from first shot.

Also -2 speed for undead workers means that they will have no movement at all. lower that effect to -1 speed.

[Skelegonsans]

1. It's not like this dragon can be purchased early. By the time one is done, a wary player will have upgraded archers by then (which is probably one of the first upgrades that you should get for any race actually (except if you're against undeads of course) because archers are so good) and upgraded archers won't have too many problems to deal with it. Add that to the fact that it's made in a factory that, from the start of the game, assuming that a player makes ONLY workers and makes all of them work on the dragon temple as they spawn (which will most of the times not be the case), it will probably take at the very least 10 turns until a player has one of these - and that's if the player RUSHES a dragon temple at the start INSTEAD of making units to take TCs which is obviously not a smart choice. If not it will take at least 14-18 turns until a lightning dragon is actually done and by then the enemy will have at least a safe amount of archers unless they're legit braindead.
2. I don't know about you, but I don't think that a dragon with 7 speed and 20 hp will be able to dive the core of enemy forces so easily trying to pick off workers if I just said that it would take at the very least 15 turns or so for one of these dragons to be spawned. And by then the enemy will have archers, upgraded units, structures and possibly turrets to deal with the dragon if they're humans or dwarves. Also don't forget that the dragon's breath deals 10 damage and most if not all workers have more than 10 hp so it will likely not be an instant kill. Also if you're so sure that a spell that deals 10 area damage is so broken, especially with such a high cooldown like this one compared to other dragons, then we should remove every single dragon's breath from the game right? How about drake knight which has 6 speed, a breath that also deals 10 damage and burns with a LOWER cooldown, and MUCH better stats? Guess we're gonna have to remove dragons from the game now according to what you're saying.
3. This unit doesn't even have power range. And the slinger literally deals like what, 3 or 4 damage at most with its AoE. Plus the archers greatly outspeed and outrange the slingers. They just run out of the slingers range, shoot the dragon down (which shouldn't be hard considering their shots will deal 5 damage to the dragon each and that's WITHOUT BONUSES), then the surviving ones kite the slingers to death. Easy peasy.

And well, I don't think "tank" is a fitting word for this dragon at all considering that any group with 5 or more archers can kill it in one turn.

And again, it's not like this dragon will reach workers so easily nor be so easily buildable. Plus the slow only lasts ONE turn and the breath has a FOUR turn cooldown. Which means that the dragon will use breath at the workers, kill one of them in the next turn with a melee attack and by then the others will be able to move again. If 2-speed slowing is so op then we should get rid of mage slowing huh?

[General Brave]

This is great.

[makazuwr32]

1. It's not like this dragon can be purchased early. By the time one is done, a wary player will have upgraded archers by then (which is probably one of the first upgrades that you should get for any race actually (except if you're against undeads of course) because archers are so good) and upgraded archers won't have too many problems to deal with it. Add that to the fact that it's made in a factory that, from the start of the game, assuming that a player makes ONLY workers and makes all of them work on the dragon temple as they spawn (which will most of the times not be the case), it will probably take at the very least 10 turns until a player has one of these - and that's if the player RUSHES a dragon temple at the start INSTEAD of making units to take TCs which is obviously not a smart choice. If not it will take at least 14-18 turns until a lightning dragon is actually done and by then the enemy will have at least a safe amount of archers unless they're legit braindead.

Your stats don't have training place so i assumed that tc.
As for upgrades:
humans usually prefer upgrade their melee units first for tanking and after only get archers;
Undeads have many-many problems with any air force because even upgraded archers still miss shots;
Orcs prefer usually to upgrade basic orcs and use giants and cavalry instead of goblin archers and orc axe throwers and while you can use axe throwers they have low range and for goblins you need different upgrade and that is wasting production time early;

2. I don't know about you, but I don't think that a dragon with 7 speed and 20 hp will be able to dive the core of enemy forces so easily trying to pick off workers if I just said that it would take at the very least 15 turns or so for one of these dragons to be spawned. And by then the enemy will have archers, upgraded units, structures and possibly turrets to deal with the dragon if they're humans or dwarves. Also don't forget that the dragon's breath deals 10 damage and most if not all workers have more than 10 hp so it will likely not be an instant kill. Also if you're so sure that a spell that deals 10 area damage is so broken, especially with such a high cooldown like this one compared to other dragons, then we should remove every single dragon's breath from the game right? How about drake knight which has 6 speed, a breath that also deals 10 damage and burns with a LOWER cooldown, and MUCH better stats? Guess we're gonna have to remove dragons from the game now according to what you're saying.

Think twice: undeads have least sight range of all races and least speed as well. For now undeads at least have for countering air units their basic towers (they gained 4 damage, 4 range and poison weapon passive) but their ranged units are worst in whole game and ofc they will have hard time of dealing with any dragon even on like 40th and 80th turn.
Undeads have only 3 real ways of countering air units: flesh golems, death knights and skeleton dragons.
2 of them have melee range and i can't say that you can get early them.

As for workers:
Human worker has 10 hp, 3 speed
Undead worker has 12 hp, 2 speed
Orc slave has 8 hp, 3 speed
Ent worker has 10 hp, 3 speed
Kobold laborer has 11 hp, 3 speed
Dwarven worker has 15 hp, 3 speed
Half of workers (basic ones) are vurable to this unit.
Drake knight is MUCH more late unit because can be produced in mega building only, has even higher cost and also counts as cavalry unit as well: you can kill him for elves for example with sentinel.
But as for elves in general they will have soon complete overhaul for their stats and some other things (and possibly at least 10 new units)


3. This unit doesn't even have power range. And the slinger literally deals like what, 3 or 4 damage at most with its AoE. Plus the archers greatly outspeed and outrange the slingers. They just run out of the slingers range, shoot the dragon down (which shouldn't be hard considering their shots will deal 5 damage to the dragon each and that's WITHOUT BONUSES), then the surviving ones kite the slingers to death. Easy peasy.

And well, I don't think "tank" is a fitting word for this dragon at all considering that any group with 5 or more archers can kill it in one turn.

And again, it's not like this dragon will reach workers so easily nor be so easily buildable. Plus the slow only lasts ONE turn and the breath has a FOUR turn cooldown. Which means that the dragon will use breath at the workers, kill one of them in the next turn with a melee attack and by then the others will be able to move again. If 2-speed slowing is so op then we should get rid of mage slowing huh?

Humans maybe can but dwarves? Their crossbowmen have range 4. And undeads (again) have range 5 and 25% miss chance on target. Undeads right now have the weakest basic units in the whole game (without upgrades and remember that raise dead gives you only basic undead regardless of your progression)

As for slow: you think that it isn't too much? But this dragon can literally stop many units because they have speed 2 in certain conditions: orc giants in water, undeads in water in general and some of their units in base, fodder cannons, undead transportship (i said already that undeads have heavy time of dealing with air units? And this way you can easily kill their transports), cave trolls, dwarven mortars, dwarven priests... And one more thing - if unit is stopped then he can't move not for 1 but for 2 turns. Also if this was single target spell than it is fine but it can reduce speed (yes for 1 turn only) of up to 13 units! -1 speed is better then. Also this effecr is already in game.
With -2 speed for affected by spell units and with combination of 2 other scources of slowing (regular spell, i think one of their dragons had it), gray dragon's aura (i count only this because we agree that only one aura of gray dragons and dark one's must substract speed) and this spell you can slow down unit for at least 5 (if use my suggestion that both this dragon's effect from spell and gray dragon's aura will substract 1 speed only) and at most 7 speed (if use your) from several units at once. And what if you will have for example 3 or even 4 these dragons? You can just shoot at target place each turn and units will have -2 speed permanently. For such race as undeads it will affect their speed dramatically because apart of 3 units (death knight, spectral rider, wagon) all their units have no more than speed 4 and most of them are melee units and this effect will just lower their speed in general by 60%. So i completely against -2 speed effect on hit of spelk even for one turn.

[Lynx Shafir]

An other annoying dragon....

The storm dragon as concept is good may a Map boss,(increased hp, keep abilities) but not a new unbalanced Dragon (unfair advantage over others) for scalefolk.
Even if has its weakness.

[LordOfAles]

Please, this is NOT a map editor unit. And currently people are discussing about it so they can balance it as much as possible. Your post doesn't help much.

[Lynx Shafir]

I was saying that the scalefolk gets a wide variety of dragons whit all sorts of skill.
Tactically good to any situation.

Don't say me it won't be overused by players if keep this rate, favoring to build a dragon instead of other reptilians. though their cost.

I said that the dragon, because of his lightning storm fits to a map editor or other race dragons.
Like the Sun/gold dragon fits to elves too.
This storm to humans

It would be good if every race had one more dragon, keeping some equality over dragon skill not only one race whit all tipe of current effects. (Heal, Fire, curse, slow, etc)

ITS JUST MY OPINION.
Its about game play(to be fun to play with every race) not balanced stats.
(I try to write helpful comments...)

Like you Have the opinion that DEMONS should be whit undeads...
If they get demons they should get THAT dark dragon too - it's current skill is more demonic, than" Scaled".

[makazuwr32]

Nah personally i want to see less dragons for other races maybe exept elves and more exclusive and intresting units.

As for scaledfolk i am making huge list of what is needed to be changed (and it will be another huge wall of text). I am balancing them around humans (current ones, i think they have best balance of all races exept few moments which are needed to be fixed to make some units more useful but that will be later).

This dragon personally i think needs aftereffect from spell is -1 speed (maybe even for 2 turns, not for 1 this way) to all units affected by it and 6 speed and with these stats it can have 5 turn cost. He will be weak by himself but with combination of other dragons and scaledfolk units he will be powerful support.

[Skelegonsans]

I was saying that the scalefolk gets a wide variety of dragons whit all sorts of skill.
Tactically good to any situation.

Don't say me it won't be overused by players if keep this rate, favoring to build a dragon instead of other reptilians. though their cost.

I said that the dragon, because of his lightning storm fits to a map editor or other race dragons.
Like the Sun/gold dragon fits to elves too.
This storm to humans

It would be good if every race had one more dragon, keeping some equality over dragon skill not only one race whit all tipe of current effects. (Heal, Fire, curse, slow, etc)

ITS JUST MY OPINION.
Its about game play(to be fun to play with every race) not balanced stats.
(I try to write helpful comments...)

Like you Have the opinion that DEMONS should be whit undeads...
If they get demons they should get THAT dark dragon too - it's current skill is more demonic, than" Scaled".

I think it's only fair that scaledfolk have the most varied dragons in the game. Do you know how scaledfolk even started? Someone made a thread for a lizardman race, and then I made a thread for a dragon-ish race (kinda like half dragon creatures) but people complained that it was too similar to the lizardmen thread which makes sense so we merged the two and went from there. Obviously the race will be very based around dragons too. Sure, some of them are heavily unbalanced right now (*cough* red & white dragon combo tatic, grey dragon aura, dark dragon aura *cough*) but it's something easily fixable through balancing stats and spells.

And indeed I agree that a race must also be fun to play and not only balanced. So I don't get the logic of being against adding a new unit if it's supposed to ADD to the fun of the race? (unless it's unbalanced of course but we're discussing balancing for this unit).

[Skelegonsans]

1. It's not like this dragon can be purchased early. By the time one is done, a wary player will have upgraded archers by then (which is probably one of the first upgrades that you should get for any race actually (except if you're against undeads of course) because archers are so good) and upgraded archers won't have too many problems to deal with it. Add that to the fact that it's made in a factory that, from the start of the game, assuming that a player makes ONLY workers and makes all of them work on the dragon temple as they spawn (which will most of the times not be the case), it will probably take at the very least 10 turns until a player has one of these - and that's if the player RUSHES a dragon temple at the start INSTEAD of making units to take TCs which is obviously not a smart choice. If not it will take at least 14-18 turns until a lightning dragon is actually done and by then the enemy will have at least a safe amount of archers unless they're legit braindead.

Your stats don't have training place so i assumed that tc.
As for upgrades:
humans usually prefer upgrade their melee units first for tanking and after only get archers;
Undeads have many-many problems with any air force because even upgraded archers still miss shots;
Orcs prefer usually to upgrade basic orcs and use giants and cavalry instead of goblin archers and orc axe throwers and while you can use axe throwers they have low range and for goblins you need different upgrade and that is wasting production time early;

2. I don't know about you, but I don't think that a dragon with 7 speed and 20 hp will be able to dive the core of enemy forces so easily trying to pick off workers if I just said that it would take at the very least 15 turns or so for one of these dragons to be spawned. And by then the enemy will have archers, upgraded units, structures and possibly turrets to deal with the dragon if they're humans or dwarves. Also don't forget that the dragon's breath deals 10 damage and most if not all workers have more than 10 hp so it will likely not be an instant kill. Also if you're so sure that a spell that deals 10 area damage is so broken, especially with such a high cooldown like this one compared to other dragons, then we should remove every single dragon's breath from the game right? How about drake knight which has 6 speed, a breath that also deals 10 damage and burns with a LOWER cooldown, and MUCH better stats? Guess we're gonna have to remove dragons from the game now according to what you're saying.

Think twice: undeads have least sight range of all races and least speed as well. For now undeads at least have for countering air units their basic towers (they gained 4 damage, 4 range and poison weapon passive) but their ranged units are worst in whole game and ofc they will have hard time of dealing with any dragon even on like 40th and 80th turn.
Undeads have only 3 real ways of countering air units: flesh golems, death knights and skeleton dragons.
2 of them have melee range and i can't say that you can get early them.

As for workers:
Human worker has 10 hp, 3 speed
Undead worker has 12 hp, 2 speed
Orc slave has 8 hp, 3 speed
Ent worker has 10 hp, 3 speed
Kobold laborer has 11 hp, 3 speed
Dwarven worker has 15 hp, 3 speed
Half of workers (basic ones) are vurable to this unit.
Drake knight is MUCH more late unit because can be produced in mega building only, has even higher cost and also counts as cavalry unit as well: you can kill him for elves for example with sentinel.
But as for elves in general they will have soon complete overhaul for their stats and some other things (and possibly at least 10 new units)


3. This unit doesn't even have power range. And the slinger literally deals like what, 3 or 4 damage at most with its AoE. Plus the archers greatly outspeed and outrange the slingers. They just run out of the slingers range, shoot the dragon down (which shouldn't be hard considering their shots will deal 5 damage to the dragon each and that's WITHOUT BONUSES), then the surviving ones kite the slingers to death. Easy peasy.

And well, I don't think "tank" is a fitting word for this dragon at all considering that any group with 5 or more archers can kill it in one turn.

And again, it's not like this dragon will reach workers so easily nor be so easily buildable. Plus the slow only lasts ONE turn and the breath has a FOUR turn cooldown. Which means that the dragon will use breath at the workers, kill one of them in the next turn with a melee attack and by then the others will be able to move again. If 2-speed slowing is so op then we should get rid of mage slowing huh?

Humans maybe can but dwarves? Their crossbowmen have range 4. And undeads (again) have range 5 and 25% miss chance on target. Undeads right now have the weakest basic units in the whole game (without upgrades and remember that raise dead gives you only basic undead regardless of your progression)

As for slow: you think that it isn't too much? But this dragon can literally stop many units because they have speed 2 in certain conditions: orc giants in water, undeads in water in general and some of their units in base, fodder cannons, undead transportship (i said already that undeads have heavy time of dealing with air units? And this way you can easily kill their transports), cave trolls, dwarven mortars, dwarven priests... And one more thing - if unit is stopped then he can't move not for 1 but for 2 turns. Also if this was single target spell than it is fine but it can reduce speed (yes for 1 turn only) of up to 13 units! -1 speed is better then. Also this effecr is already in game.
With -2 speed for affected by spell units and with combination of 2 other scources of slowing (regular spell, i think one of their dragons had it), gray dragon's aura (i count only this because we agree that only one aura of gray dragons and dark one's must substract speed) and this spell you can slow down unit for at least 5 (if use my suggestion that both this dragon's effect from spell and gray dragon's aura will substract 1 speed only) and at most 7 speed (if use your) from several units at once. And what if you will have for example 3 or even 4 these dragons? You can just shoot at target place each turn and units will have -2 speed permanently. For such race as undeads it will affect their speed dramatically because apart of 3 units (death knight, spectral rider, wagon) all their units have no more than speed 4 and most of them are melee units and this effect will just lower their speed in general by 60%. So i completely against -2 speed effect on hit of spelk even for one turn.

Hmm, I guess you're right.

But still, reducing the spell to a 1-turn 1-speed slow will make it really weak. How about increasing this dragon's HP slightly (to like 26) and make its cost 7 instead.

[makazuwr32]

Let me clear what stats i am thinking so we will have better discussin after:

Stats:
Storm Dragon
Cost - 5 turns, Trainable at Dragon Temple. (cost is same)
Hp 23
Atk 11
Arm./p.arm. 1/1
Range 1
Speed 6 (-1)
Sight 8 (+1)
Abilities:
Flying
Lighting breath: fireball-like ability (deals damage and applies effect if possible), deals 10 lighting damage in area, applies all affected units Slowing (-1 speed) for 2 turns. Range - 3 tiles, cooldown - 4 turns. Has same animation as elven wizard's "thunder" (added range because in your variant it seems that it was 0 range, lowered speed reduce to -1 but increased time of effect to 2 turns).
counts as: Flying, Dragon.
Description: This purple-scaled dragon has the amazing powers of lightning under its control. It is fast and can strike in the blink of an eye.

This variant, @Skelegonsans is pretty balanced and still useful as support, explorer (not as frontline unit).

[General Brave]

Now you have to find a picture of a purple dragon.