Tournament

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makazuwr32
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Re: Tournament

Post by makazuwr32 »

I can agree on masonry giving at most +15% construction and mend rate without any bonus health IF it affects every building of humans.
Alas still i disagree with giving any extra construction and mend rate at all for humans yet.
Especially because we will update mend rates and will give tiers for their morker and laborer and when combined with extra mend/construction rate this WILL become too powerful. Construction of normally cost 5 turns building in 2 or 3 turns might not be impossible and way too unbalanced.

Alas... IF YOU INSIST, @Stratego (dev), to give extra mend rate and construction rate for masonry than we must go for lower mend rate (by roughly same amount) for humans in planned buildings update.

I am fine if this tech will not affect all human buildings though but for example only walls or only towers. In this case it might give higher values and in case of walls even give extra hp.

.

1b option is actually planned long ago change for all lancers, not exclusive to raptor rider.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Puss_in_Boots
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Re: Tournament

Post by Puss_in_Boots »

I don't think moniter lancer needs a nerf.
Instead it should be replaced with moniter rider on spawn to negate the type advantage.

Can we ban dodge techs for elves though?
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Re: Tournament

Post by Vladneral »

Puss_in_Boots wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:11 am
Can we ban dodge techs for elves though?
Whats the point for ban dodge techs ? I personaly see no reason for it.
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Re: Tournament

Post by Stratego (dev) »

i also dont like dodge as a mechanic, but i am afraid elves are totally relied on dodge currently.
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Re: Tournament

Post by makazuwr32 »

Dodge techs for elves is their way to become better over time in terms of survivability.
They do not get extra health and do not get lots of armor either. And when combined that with their already thin hp than without dodges they will be crushed by literally everything.

And we are not planning to give extra hp techs for elves (alas i mean elves specifically though — mermen and other animals and animal-based allies of elves (satyrs, centaurs for example) might and will get extra hp) since:
1. It does not fit their concept of agile glass units;
2. It is very hard to balance — for now it is actually much harder to balance than dodges (especially because dodges you can counter by units who has bonus against elf with dodges but hp increase is harder to balance since % hp increase might be too powerful for hp tanks while numerical hp increase will be too small for hp tanks (or too high for glass units)); just a reminder that we still did not find proper formula for hp increases for scalefolks;
3. Elves already are relying very heavy onto techs and if we will replace dodges with extra health than it will become worse (because we also will be forced to remove dodges at base of elves and some units are based around having good dodge specifically — if they will loose dodges than they must get hp compensation and as i have calculated some of them will become at base as result MORE HEALTHY than orcish alternative units — for example elven assaulter (skirmisher unit with 2 actions) at base will have more hp than troll headhunter tier 2 if he will loose all dodges);
4. Another problem is that elves will become less "elves" and more "orcs" hp wise in this case which we do not want (see point 3);
5. Lastly it will cost for me lots and lots of time to make that working which i can spend onto working on more important stuff — for example on planning magic update.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Tournament

Post by Stratego (dev) »

you misunderstand - i dont want to change elves!
(i just said i dont like dodge mechanic in general - i just mentioned it here so everyone know that "new" dodge units / races are not welcome and should not be created, as dodge itself is not a good mechanic (becasue of it has randomness))


i just said we can not "ban" dodge from this tournament as elves are totally lost without it (probably) - and you confirmed it.

so in torunament
a) we should let dodge to be used for elves
b) or ban Elves totally - but this can only happen if we really have balance problems with elves in general - that i dont hink - i think they are ok now - however i can be wrong.
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Re: Tournament

Post by makazuwr32 »

Well we do not plan to introduce any extra full races who will rely onto dodges as much as elves but some subs with limited amount of units is fine to add as for me.

Also that was an answer to puss in boots why we can't ban dodges and why we will not change that.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Tournament

Post by makazuwr32 »

Stratego (dev) wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:40 pm 1. Raptor rider
1/a: should cost 4 and gave 5/5/6 speed depends of tire
1/b: stay same except having "no counter attack" spec, so no bonus when it counters (makw idea)

2. scaledfolk lancer should cost 4 and gave 5/5/6 speed depends of tire (here makaw might suggest some smaller change)
We will fix in uocoming update some effect and make "counter_no_bonus" spec action which all lancers have now working properly.
Now any cavalry will not get extra damage from bonuses when it attacks lancers first.

I think this will help a lot with balancing these 2 units.
For now let's set it as solved (if needed we will apply later some additional changes alas i hope those will not be required).
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Tournament

Post by Stratego (dev) »

Well we do not plan to introduce any extra full races who will rely onto dodges as much as elves but some subs with limited amount of units is fine to add as for me.
yes that is possible
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Re: Tournament

Post by Vladneral »

What about infantry spearmans then ?
I mean if you attack spearman with lamcer cavalry (cavalry without foot bonus) - you will get full damage from spearman with bonus damage.
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Re: Tournament

Post by Puss_in_Boots »

Polearm infantry aren't so fast, so they are much easier to deal with archers or even mounted archers.

What's the point of sending cavalry to them unless they're vulnerable?

Also I think the logic here is that a lancer should do less damage defending than it does attacking.
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Re: Tournament

Post by makazuwr32 »

Vladneral wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:45 pm What about infantry spearmans then ?
I mean if you attack spearman with lamcer cavalry (cavalry without foot bonus) - you will get full damage from spearman with bonus damage.
Not anymore.
Now normally all damage dealt on counter (if it is not specified otherwise on attacker unit or on defender unit) will deal halved total damage.

For example if unit has 40 attack and 200% bonus. On counter against non-bonus target he will do 20 damage that is reduced by armor. On counter against bonus target he will do 40*(1+2)/2=60 damage that is reduced by armor.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Vladneral
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Re: Tournament

Post by Vladneral »

makazuwr32 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:56 pm
Not anymore.
Now normally all damage dealt on counter (if it is not specified otherwise on attacker unit or on defender unit) will deal halved total damage.

For example if unit has 40 attack and 200% bonus. On counter against non-bonus target he will do 20 damage that is reduced by armor. On counter against bonus target he will do 40*(1+2)/2=60 damage that is reduced by armor.
You mean that will change in current update ?

By the way - when thing about rams will changes ? Or we should add condition in rules that you can carry only foot melee units there - no shooters, no casters.
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Re: Tournament

Post by makazuwr32 »

Vladneral wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:27 pm
makazuwr32 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:56 pm
Not anymore.
Now normally all damage dealt on counter (if it is not specified otherwise on attacker unit or on defender unit) will deal halved total damage.

For example if unit has 40 attack and 200% bonus. On counter against non-bonus target he will do 20 damage that is reduced by armor. On counter against bonus target he will do 40*(1+2)/2=60 damage that is reduced by armor.
You mean that will change in current update ?
In upcoming, yes.
Vladneral wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:27 pm By the way - when thing about rams will changes ? Or we should add condition in rules that you can carry only foot melee units there - no shooters, no casters.
Not yet. Better to add such condition.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Tournament

Post by Vladneral »

Any news about update ? Just I would like to take a look on the main issues that we discuss before posting final variant of rules and tournament brakets.

We should start tomorrow but maybe we need postpone it to update realise :/
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Re: Tournament

Post by Stratego (dev) »

sorry my bad - so this is the plan the first 2 is ready however might need bugfixes
--------------------------
1. Raptor rider - stay same except having "no counter attack" spec, so no bonus when it counters (makw idea)  - DONE
2. scaledfolk lancer - maybe this is also solved by the above  "no counter attack" spec? if so than - DONE
3. masonry should be: what about +40% construct bonus +40% mend bonus but giving no HP at all. 
4. massive walls should be: +10armor +30 parmor on cost: i say 7, is that too cheap? 
5. flesh golem: casting range to be fixed range 1, require 2 corpses to summon, have vanishing 5 and cooldown 3 turns
6. Dragon summon (both zombie dragon summon, skeleton drake/dragon/wyrm/hydra or green drake/dragon/wyrm) — fixed casting range 1.
7. Dragon summon (green drake/dragon/wyrm specifically) — tier 1 troll shaman must have only green drake summon, tier 2 troll shaman must have drake and dragon summon, tier 3 troll shaman must have all 3 summons. So remove from tier 1 dragon and wyrm summon abilities, from tier 2 wyrm summon ability.

so can we make these?
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Re: Tournament

Post by Vladneral »

From first look without test - masonry will give too much speed for constructing cheap buildings then.

I think that actualy not solve problem with start fast raptor expansion - in small maps especialy. If i start with raptor and orc shaman i can move to dispute tc boldly and if i late in one turn - i will one shoot light cavalry anyway. And if i even will not capture this tc because of 1 turn unit(that will happen only with zombie) - i delay expansion of my opponent with no loses.

All others seems fine now but need fast test anyway.
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Re: Tournament

Post by Stratego (dev) »

masonry: but how? you suggested to be +50% now i gave less: 40%! :) what value is the suggestion?
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Re: Tournament

Post by Puss_in_Boots »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the raptor riders were supposed to have 5 speed for the first 2 tiers, and cost 4 turns to disable early scout abilities.

Also I like this idea for masonry tech:
makazuwr32 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:00 pm I can agree on masonry giving at most +15% construction and mend rate without any bonus health IF it affects every building of humans.

[...]
+50% mendrate effects castle too much

Or maybe do +40% hp/mendrate instead of flat +50 health just to make the buildtime longer until the workers are tiered. That would make castles more vulnerable to frontline fire, for longer, which makes it less viable strategy to rush workers to build castles to the front.
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Re: Tournament

Post by Vladneral »

Stratego (dev) wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:27 pm masonry: but how? you suggested to be +50% now i gave less: 40%! :) what value is the suggestion?
I suggest give +50% hp not +50hp like it was before.
If we make it like this ☝that will not decrease or increase construction speed in turns.

With no add hp at all that means strong increase construction speed for all cheap buildings and if it will works like before that +40% to mend rate for castle will work as follows: 450% without masonry and 450%×1,4=730% with masonry in other words castle cost in worker action with ambixteria and masonry will be : div[3999/(45×7,3)]+2=14 actions.

And all cheap buildings will cost 3 worker actions including guard tower.

So i think that not solve balance problem
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Re: Tournament

Post by Vladneral »

Puss_in_Boots wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:57 am Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the raptor riders were supposed to have 5 speed for the first 2 tiers, and cost 4 turns to disable early scout abilities.
I thought the same or atleast 3 turn cost raptor but with 5 speed for his first 2 tiers.

And about masonry: yes +15% to mend affect is the most that we can give if without increasing hp at all.
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Re: Tournament

Post by makazuwr32 »

Stratego (dev) wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:40 pm sorry my bad - so this is the plan the first 2 is ready however might need bugfixes
--------------------------
1. Raptor rider - stay same except having "no counter attack" spec, so no bonus when it counters (makw idea)  - DONE
2. scaledfolk lancer - maybe this is also solved by the above  "no counter attack" spec? if so than - DONE
3. masonry should be: what about +40% construct bonus +40% mend bonus but giving no HP at all. 
4. massive walls should be: +10armor +30 parmor on cost: i say 7, is that too cheap? 
5. flesh golem: casting range to be fixed range 1, require 2 corpses to summon, have vanishing 5 and cooldown 3 turns
6. Dragon summon (both zombie dragon summon, skeleton drake/dragon/wyrm/hydra or green drake/dragon/wyrm) — fixed casting range 1.
7. Dragon summon (green drake/dragon/wyrm specifically) — tier 1 troll shaman must have only green drake summon, tier 2 troll shaman must have drake and dragon summon, tier 3 troll shaman must have all 3 summons. So remove from tier 1 dragon and wyrm summon abilities, from tier 2 wyrm summon ability.

so can we make these?
Masonry — no more than +15% for both. Alas i prefer no extra mend rate and cosntruction rate for humans or limit it to affect for example fortifications only or factories only.

+40% mend rate to buildongs is equial to increase for same amount mend rate of worker and human worker has 40 mend rate which will result in equial to 56 mend rate. And that will give (as masonry and massive walls already are giving right now) extremly huuuge advantage over any race who does not have tech to increase construction and mend bonus on buildings.

Everything else is fine.

Reason why i do not allow for any extra hp is because it will give in future too many extra hp and will exceed limit of 9k hp for castle that is set by stratego. Since castle in future will have at least 7500 hp and multiplying it by x1.5 will result in having for it 11250 hp which is too much.

Another variant that i can allow is to give for both masonry and massive walls +5% extra hp, construction and mend rate for 5/6 turns cost, both will be researchable in advancement center only (exclude masonry from tc in this case), massive walls will require masonry.
If both will affect only fortifications than i can allow to increase bonus up to 10% per tech.
_____________________________________________________

About raptor riders:
Yes they will allow to deal with enemy cav early game but.
Since they will have no counter you can also attack them firstly now with your cav to deal damage and with some support you can even kill them without any damage taken.

Alas i must admit one thing, @Stratego (dev) — no counter spec also must be applied to other lancer units as well:
Human lancer, 3 tiers
Imperial lancer
Warfell lancer
Deer/hippocampus/unicorn/eagle warrior
Harnessed unicorn/tiger/peryton sentinel/protector
Skeleton lancer, 3 tiers
Monster lancer
Storm knight of unholy knights
Uruk lancer unit, 4 tiers (map editor one included)
Boar lancer, 3 tiers
Ram valkyrie, 3 tiers
Rhino lancer
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Tournament

Post by Stratego (dev) »

Vladneral wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:12 am
Stratego (dev) wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:27 pm masonry: but how? you suggested to be +50% now i gave less: 40%! :) what value is the suggestion?
I suggest give +50% hp not +50hp like it was before.
If we make it like this ☝that will not decrease or increase construction speed in turns.

With no add hp at all that means strong increase construction speed for all cheap buildings and if it will works like before that +40% to mend rate for castle will work as follows: 450% without masonry and 450%×1,4=730% with masonry in other words castle cost in worker action with ambixteria and masonry will be : div[3999/(45×7,3)]+2=14 actions.

And all cheap buildings will cost 3 worker actions including guard tower.

So i think that not solve balance problem
I see, you are right. i did not counted that in your suggestion HP also increased.
ok so the +15% as Makaw suggested is ok?
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Re: Tournament

Post by Stratego (dev) »

i see you already answered, ok updating the todo-list
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Re: Tournament

Post by Stratego (dev) »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the raptor riders were supposed to have 5 speed for the first 2 tiers, and cost 4 turns to disable early scout abilities.
if orcs have no 3 turn scouter unit instead of this than we must keep it on 3 turn (every race need a at most 3 turn long range scouting unit)
about 5 speed also not good - they need 6 range scout as other races.
Q1: do they have alternative scout to train?
Q2: istn that the basic problem that starter unit for Orcs is raptor rider? what is we set another scout unit to that position? do they have any?
btw: I always wanted to take away the power of this unit against other scouts, orc scout should be about the same as other scouts in power and bonuses

------------
no counter spec also must be applied to other lancer units as well
ok, can u list me the unit names in UNIT_xx form, so i can find them easily.
if not than i owill set what i can find easily and others i will leave to Savra for later (as not needed for tournament quick fix)


-----------------

ok todo list now:

1. Raptor rider - stay same except having "no counter attack" spec, so no bonus when it counters (makw idea) - DONE
2. scaledfolk lancer - maybe this is also solved by the above "no counter attack" spec? if so than - DONE
3. masonry should be: +15% construct bonus +15% mend bonus but giving no HP at all.
4. massive walls should be: +10armor +30 parmor on cost: 7
5. flesh golem: casting range to be fixed range 1, require 2 corpses to summon, have vanishing 5 and cooldown 3 turns
6. Dragon summon (both zombie dragon summon, skeleton drake/dragon/wyrm/hydra or green drake/dragon/wyrm) — fixed casting range 1.
7. Dragon summon (green drake/dragon/wyrm specifically) — tier 1 troll shaman must have only green drake summon, tier 2 troll shaman must have drake and dragon summon, tier 3 troll shaman must have all 3 summons. So remove from tier 1 dragon and wyrm summon abilities, from tier 2 wyrm summon ability.
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Re: Tournament

Post by Stratego (dev) »

(already set) Human lancer, 3 tiers
(already set) Imperial lancer
(already set) Warfell lancer
(already set) Deer/hippocampus/unicorn/eagle warrior
(not set ) - Harnessed unicorn/tiger/peryton sentinel/protector
(already set) Skeleton lancer, 3 tiers
(already set) Monster lancer
(already set) Storm knight
(not set ) unholy knights
(already set) Uruk lancer unit, 4 tiers (map editor one included)
(already set) Boar lancer, 3 tiers
(i could not find) Ram (what is ram?)
(already set) valkyrie, 3 tiers
(i could not find) -Rhino lancer

the not set ones i have not set as were not lancers - needs re- confirmation if they need this spec
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Re: Tournament

Post by Stratego (dev) »

(DONE) 1. Raptor rider - stay same except having "no counter attack" spec, so no bonus when it counters (makw idea) -
(DONE) 2. scaledfolk lancer - maybe this is also solved by the above "no counter attack" spec? if so than - DONE
(DONE) 3. masonry should be: +15% construct bonus +15% mend bonus but giving no HP at all.
(DONE) 4. massive walls should be: +10armor +30 parmor on cost: 7
(DONE) 5. flesh golem: casting range to be fixed range 1, require 2 corpses to summon, have vanishing 5 and cooldown 3 turns
(DONE i hope i found all) 6. Dragon summon (both zombie dragon summon, skeleton drake/dragon/wyrm/hydra or green drake/dragon/wyrm) — fixed casting range 1.
(DONE) 7. Dragon summon (green drake/dragon/wyrm specifically) — tier 1 troll shaman must have only green drake summon, tier 2 troll shaman must have drake and dragon summon, tier 3 troll shaman must have all 3 summons. So remove from tier 1 dragon and wyrm summon abilities, from tier 2 wyrm summon ability.

uos 10
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Re: Tournament

Post by makazuwr32 »

Stratego (dev) wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:30 am (already set) Human lancer, 3 tiers
(already set) Imperial lancer
(already set) Warfell lancer
(already set) Deer/hippocampus/unicorn/eagle warrior
(not set ) - Harnessed unicorn/tiger/peryton sentinel/protector
(already set) Skeleton lancer, 3 tiers
(already set) Monster lancer
(already set) Storm knight
(not set ) unholy knights
(already set) Uruk lancer unit, 4 tiers (map editor one included)
(already set) Boar lancer, 3 tiers
(i could not find) Ram (what is ram?)
(already set) valkyrie, 3 tiers
(i could not find) -Rhino lancer

the not set ones i have not set as were not lancers - needs re- confirmation if they need this spec
Unholy knights in general - no. I meant storm knight from this group.
Ram valkyrie is mounted valkyrie on ram/bighorn/sheep.
Foot valkyrie must not have it.
Rhino lancer — defender rhino lancer maybe?
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Tournament

Post by makazuwr32 »

Stratego (dev) wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:03 am
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the raptor riders were supposed to have 5 speed for the first 2 tiers, and cost 4 turns to disable early scout abilities.
if orcs have no 3 turn scouter unit instead of this than we must keep it on 3 turn (every race need a at most 3 turn long rande scouting unit)
about 5 speed also not good - they need 6 range scout as other races.
Q1: do they have alternative scout to train?
Q2: istn that the basic problem that starter unit for Orcs is raptor rider? what is we set another scout unit to that position? do they have any?
btw: I always wanted to take away the power of this unit against other scouts, orc scout should be about the same as other scouts in power and bonuses
1. Orcs have alternative scout — light cavalry based orc scout unit. 3 turns cost, speed 6.
2. I think that it is already changed to orc scout unit. Alas if it is not than we must change raptor rider to it.

Puss in boots is not right neither wrong though — raptor rider indeed was planned to become 4 turn cost unit with stats update for that cost (5/5/6 speed included). But that change must come along with goblin cheetah lancer unit with speed 6 and cost 3 turns along with comparable (alas slightly smaller) stats compared to current raptor rider.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Tournament

Post by Vladneral »

makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:06 am --------------------------
About raptor riders:
Yes they will allow to deal with enemy cav early game but.
Since they will have no counter you can also attack them firstly now with your cav to deal damage and with some support you can even kill them without any damage taken.
I cant get it anyway - how you can deal with them in early race for tc if they with orc shaman buff can one shoot any scout of other races - and 6 speed so you cant run away.

There are no more 3 turn lancer cavalry for other races except elfs but that one have 5 speed and much weaker and scaledfolks that strong too actualy ... i did not play for them in pvp but ... look - buff it too with dragon might and you for 3 turns can one shoot enemy scout.

So the problem is that in early game you can meet only fast opponent units - scouts. And when you have lancer with the same turn cost with the same speed and with ability one hit - one kill enemy unit - you have the big start adventage.

And how you can conter it ? Start without scouts ? Or which support you should recruit that can help you deal with enemy lancers away from your start base ?
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