Tournament

[makazuwr32]

Both scalefolks and orcs do not start with those units.
And you just need to not endure attack of raptor riders but attack them firstly.

Especially when what did we plan will be fixed for them — no damage on counter and instead regardless of attacker just generic halved base attack.

No matter what buffs it has it will not be able to survive for long enough in such carefully planned situation.

As for supports:
Scalefolks have their own lancers;
Elves can recruit druid and/or own lancer;
Humans can use birds — this lancer deals 1 damage to them while they have 4 hp, are flying, have 6 speed;
Undeads... Well they are only race for whom it might be troublesome but now flesh golems are a bit more balanced so use them;
Dwarves — use own lancers (yes you need to spend a bit more turns for that though) with rune of charging (fixed) and rune of healing.

Also you describe situation when orc player has both raptor rider and orc shaman so he used 6 turns in total for that.
Meanwhile:
Elves for same cost can get druid and 2 turn cost light cav
Humans can get light cav, healer and bird
Undeads can get 2 necromancers (use golems)
Dwarves can get lancer and half way up rune of charging
Scalefolks can get their own lancer and witch doctor

In case when you have 2+ ways where to move if you spend your time onto raptor rider and shaman you will fall back behind player who starts with 2 scouts so it is not wise way of usage.

Also on some maps there are some neutral animals and/or hostile units and raptor riders are not that good to deal with them when compared to orc scout.
For example one map has 4 wolves from one side coming and if you attack them with raptor rider it will die even under buff of shaman faster than it will deal with all wolves.

By the way.
Actually i think that orc scout under buff of orc shaman might be suprisingly much more dangerous combination than raptor rider under same buff.
Orc scout for example can one shot bird of humans and now can not fear and thus deal with elven 3 turn cost lancers. Under buff of orc shaman it can even kill deer warrior without much damage to itself.

[Vladneral]

No matter what buffs it has it will not be able to survive for long enough in such carefully planned situation.

As for supports:
Scalefolks have their own lancers;

Is it ok ? that means that who first attack the winner. They both can one shoot each other.

Elves can recruit druid and/or own lancer;

Elves lancer cant one shoot orc raptor, but orc raptor can.
Ok with druid you can see raptor first but how you suppose to kill him ?
You need hold your cavalry away from him so you lose in tc expansion.

Humans can use birds — this lancer deals 1 damage to them while they have 4 hp, are flying, have 6 speed;

Ok again you can see him first but how you suppose to fight with raptor ?

Undeads... Well they are only race for whom it might be troublesome but now flesh golems are a bit more balanced so use them;

Start with necromancers ? So you have lost in tc expansion

Dwarves — use own lancers (yes you need to spend a bit more turns for that though) with rune of charging (fixed) and rune of healing.

Again dwarf lancer CANT one shoot raptor but raptor can one shoot dwarf lancer. The point of rune of healing ? You dead from one shoot with full hp

Also you describe situation when orc player has both raptor rider and orc shaman so he used 6 turns in total for that.

In case when you have 2+ ways where to move if you spend your time onto raptor rider and shaman you will fall back behind player who starts with 2 scouts so it is not wise way of usage.

Usualy close to start position you have 3 tc so 2 raptors and shaman
In both direction your scouts meet raptors and die.

By the way.
Actually i think that orc scout under buff of orc shaman might be suprisingly much more dangerous combination than raptor rider under same buff.
Orc scout for example can one shot bird of humans and now can not fear and thus deal with elven 3 turn cost lancers. Under buff of orc shaman it can even kill deer warrior without much damage to itself.

Orc scout with buff cant kill opponent scout in one turn but raptor can.

[Stratego (dev)]

i agree: starter scout units must not have any bonus against other starter scouts.

[makazuwr32]

But who said that you must fight and murder mercifully that raptor rider with your own scout?

You can capture tc faster than enemy and use units i mentioned to hold off raptor rider before you can deal with it via polearm unit. 4 turns i think will be enough for humans (bird, it will receive from that lancer 1 damage even if you will somehow get 100500 attack on that unit), 4+ turns will be for sure enough for elves (due to druid).

As long as you can capture tc and get a unit whom raptor rider can't kill at start you will win that tc if orc has no scouts or some ranged support.

Elven lancer can't one shoot but elves have best at the start archers with speed 4 (due to which they will not fall back too much from elven lancers) so with support of even 1 archer raptor rider is not an issue and can be dealt with without even taking any damage. Especially if you will play on fog/explored map and will use advantage of elven superior sight range.

Another option for elves is to train blade and glaive dancers, rush for jump tech and profit — you have melee unit with same speed as your average cavalry for same 3 turns that can cross some obstacles and even has no bonus from raptor rider.

Elves i must admit if you have all upgrades have the widest range of possible counters against raptor riders rush. Even more than orcs, scalefolks and dwarves have combined.

Undeads yes can loose a bit in expansion but they can win now due to flesh golems. And orcs when are rushing have no counter to flesh golems.
Especially because they now by default live longer than before.

For dwarves indeed it might be a trouble to deal with raptor rider early game. Alas under updated rune of charging (gives +10 attack and +1 speed now) basic dwarven lancer CAN one shot tier 1 raptor rider even under troll skin effect. Even tier 2 raptor rider can be one shotted if without orc skin or troll skin.

Scalefolks are fine since they have their own lancer scout. Yes it is ok. Battle of minds, yes.

Alas i must admit that both monitor lancer and raptor rider must not be presented in max starting units pool.
Here i agree.
Can someone confirm who for scalefolks and for orcs are presented in max unit count?

As for orc scout:
On sacred forest small map it will be more effective than raptor rider due to lots of neutral and hostile animals around. Against spider with 30 attack and 120 hp for example raptor rider with 28 damage is a nice food. While orc scout with 15*1.25 x2 times damage will be more powerful. Especially under buff of orc shaman — 27*1.25 x2 times (or 33-armor damage to animals per hit).
Or you want to be eaten alive by pack of 4 wolves and flying hippogriff when enemy will wound him (or you by accident in melee with your raptor)?
Another problem of raptor riders during expansion is that they do piercing damage and thus are much less effective against neutral pile of rocks (40 hp, 0/10 armor ones).

[Vladneral]

Well ok if my arguments dont change your mind - I give up. Will play for orcs then.

[Stratego (dev)]

But who said that you must fight and murder mercifully that raptor rider with your own scout?

this is not a case here
no one want to fight the overpower unit, just want to survive with their scouts if they accidentally within vincinity.

ok here is really no need to argue: it is true: initial scouts should not get bonus against other cavalry.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok i have checked now:

The initial Orc scut is: "UNIT_ORC_SCOUT" that is "Orc Scout"
so no problem with initial unit.

so as a result we can increase the cost of the raptor rider to 4 as that is NOT the basic orc scout unit but simply a lancer unit (so the "scout cost and speed constraint" not triggers here).
(i was wrong above thinking the raptos is the initial unit, and orc has no other basic scout)

[Stratego (dev)]

stats now:
raptor rider (not default scout unit, and not even "race scout unit")
"costTurn":3,
"hpMax":80,
"power":28,
"armorPierce":2,
"armorNormal":2,
"rangeWalk":6,
(has bonus against cavalries)
"trnBonusList":[
{"modifier":1.5,"unitList":{"categories":["AND(", "U_MOUNTED", "U_LAND", "NOT", "U_GIANTS", ")"]}},
{"modifier":0.75,"unitList":{"categories":["U_MOUNTED"]}}
],

orc scout (THE default orc scout unit and it is a "race scout unit")
"costTurn":3,
"hpMax":88,
"power":15,
"armorPierce":0,
"armorNormal":0,
"rangeWalk":6,


for reference another scout eg. humans - it is a "race scout unit":
"costTurn":3,
"hpMax":80,
"power":12,
"armorPierce":1,
"armorNormal":1,
"rangeWalk":6,


so from this we see that orcs have the normal scout unit. so we can change the raptor rider any way to gain balance - if it is op.

also here is human lancer to compare to raptor rider (bonus is same as raptor rider bonus setting):
"costTurn":4,
"hpMax":100,
"power":28,
"rangeAttack":1,
"armorPierce":4,
"armorNormal":4,
"rangeWalk":5,
"trnBonusList":[
{"modifier":1.5,"unitList":{"categories":["AND(", "U_MOUNTED", "U_LAND", "NOT", "U_GIANTS", ")"]}},
{"modifier":0.75,"unitList":{"categories":["U_MOUNTED"]}}
],

[Stratego (dev)]

also added human lancer stats.

(btw: we are totally off topic here with balancing discussion in the middle of tournament topic)

[makazuwr32]

I do not want to make any changes to raptor rider and monitor lancer until we will test already applied changes to all lancers.

[Stratego (dev)]

the question in this raptor question: if this raptor rider is op or not and if this change made it less op or not.

[Vladneral]

I already told everything. I have nothing to add.

[makazuwr32]

For someone it is still op as hell.
But this change for sure made it less op.

Vlad alas i will not take time in participating in tournament but at least we can have orc vs elf match between you and me once current dev version is released into wilderness. To see if raptor riders really are op or not.

[Vladneral]

Well, like I see game has been updated. So I post brackets now.

Remember: You will have chances for win after first lose. There below another brackets for players who lose one time.

Rules I will post a bit later - when I check issues that was in last version.

The rating is based on the multiplayer rating, all those who are not included in it today are placed in the remaining cells using the "randomize" function.

So soon we can begin.

Brackets(have problems to add images... so the link ):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1O3EWcE ... sp=sharing

[Vladneral]

Well ok.
Rules:

General:
The games will be held under double elimination system for one week (we could make a break for christmas and New Year if needed). So if match not over for this time -the winner will determined by score.

Maps:
-Sacred forest small
or
-Sacred forest medium
(You can choose)

Options:
Map visibility - reveal.
Start units - many.
Starting technologies - no techs.
Enable upgrades - yes.
Spell upgrades - no.
Pop limit - 200.

Races: You choose one race for all tournament.

New version should fix most issues that we had so left only one prohabit for balance:

Humans, dwarfs:
- no carry shooters, casters in rams. (As you cant do it in next versions, but its still not change)

When you post the game please inform me about race that you choose and race of your opponent if he not here or in discord.

[Stratego (dev)]

Humans, dwarfs:
- no carry shooters, casters in rams. (As you cant do it in next versions, but its still not change)

wait is it to be fixed?
shall i?

[makazuwr32]

Humans, dwarfs:
- no carry shooters, casters in rams. (As you cant do it in next versions, but its still not change)

wait is it to be fixed?
shall i?

Right, forgot.
Can you change carriable units by human/dwarven battering ram to [non-giant, foot, melee]?

[Stratego (dev)]

sure? you mean an archer can not fit into rams? why? same size as a swordsman

isnt that you want that archers should not be able to shoot out from a ram? (i mean no one can attack from a ram)

isnt this the real request?

[makazuwr32]

Real request is to disable shooters, throwers and casters to act in battering rams, yes.
Might be implemented in form of new aura effect that reduces actions count by -20 with range 0.

[Stratego (dev)]

aura: i dont think that is a good way

i can disable ALL units from attacking (i mean from inside)

is that good?

[Aral_Yaren]

Stratego, I've put the gane for us,

Name: Tournament - KS
PW: Stratego
Sacred Forest Medium

[Mehanoid777]

I dont get it, tournament have started or not?

[Puss_in_Boots]

It started

[makazuwr32]

aura: i dont think that is a good way

i can disable ALL units from attacking (i mean from inside)

is that good?

No it is not good since melee units must be able to act (attacking or using abilities) from inside.

Best way probably is to allow to enter into rams only for non-giant foot melee units.

[Stratego (dev)]

aura: i dont think that is a good way

i can disable ALL units from attacking (i mean from inside)

is that good?

No it is not good since melee units must be able to act (attacking or using abilities) from inside.
Best way probably is to allow to enter into rams only for non-giant foot melee units.

but why? seems not logical if i can use my swords from inside, why shooters can not shoot?

[makazuwr32]

Too tight space.
Roof does not allow to aim right.
You maybe can shoot directly to the front but not too far (ideally i would limit max range maybe to 2-3 for shooters/throwers and to 1 regardless of their actual range but that will require even more coding so no).

Ram has too low roof to protect units inside from arrows.
That alas reduces possible range for casters, shooters and throwers to act.
Melee units can use loopholes in battering ram but ranged unjts and casters can't.

Also it is not good for balance since unlike ents and war zeppelins who are costly and require tech to unlock them after which extra tech to give them carry cap rams have at base already carry capacity and thus can be used as cover for ranged units much-much earlier.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok than.
it is ready.

uos 10

[Aral_Yaren]

Stratego, I've put the gane for us,

Name: Tournament - KS
PW: Stratego
Sacred Forest Medium

Last call so I won't be wrong (AoF IGN: KucingKilatz).

[Stratego (dev)]

but i have joined many hours ago

[Aral_Yaren]

Great, let's go!