Tournament

[Vladneral]

Hello everyone.
Some players and me would like to create tournament - last for this year.

Particapation is free for everyone.
Rewards:
1st place - 30 gems
2nd place - 20 gems
3rd place - 10 gems

Important - attention please !
Tournament will go on around 4 weeks !

Details: map, rules, game process, etc... will be post later because:

Our main problem - too little people for this event.
If we will not find enough - we postpone it to next year.

So i wait for response - who want to join !
Remember -All welcome.

And as i said - if we will have good number then i will post here more information about this event.
And join us in discord! To be honest - i would like to discuss details there:
https://discord.gg/m4ypXfGRXE

[makazuwr32]

I'd say maybe increase revards up to 400/150/50 gems.

[Puss_in_Boots]

I agree, rewards are too small for time investment.

[Vladneral]

I myself cant offer more for now. If you are - go ahead. But dont you think what this changes situation?

And more about reward - that free tournament so you risk nothing, you could play bet games if this little amount dont cost your time but there you could get more or less the same amount of gems for 4 week game play
even with 100% win rate if you and your opponents dont play 24/7 only.

Even more: if this doesnt cost your time - why you play game at all - i cant get it.

[Vladneral]

If no responce from wishers to join in next two days - i will close the case till better times.

[Puss_in_Boots]

What about the 6 player full bet games? One victory easily equates to 50 gems.

[Puss_in_Boots]

I mean I'll sign up for it since it is better than free matches + daily gift and campaigns.

[Stratego (dev)]

i am in

[makazuwr32]

If no responce from wishers to join in next two days - i will close the case till better times.

But rewards may be provided by stratego.

[Stratego (dev)]

sure but i think should be more tempting:

Rewards:
1st place - 800 gems
2nd place - 400 gems
3rd place - 200 gems

[Mehanoid777]

Im in. Only 1 race is allowed or I can choose different from battle to battle? Its too few time to collect all wishing players. Was the advertisment in game chat?

[makazuwr32]

No actual rules are set yet as i understand.

[Vladneral]

Ok let try it. In next post i write the intial version of rules - we will discuss and maybe will make some corrections.

Tomorrow i also will make announcement in game chat for get more players in. Send invitations yourself too!

And in next monday ( 6 december) we will begin.

Till sunday players can sign up in tournament.

[Vladneral]

Rules:

General:
The games will be held under double elimination system for one week (we could make a break for christmas and New Year if needed). So if match not over for this time -the winner will determined by score.

Maps:
I think we need not large and not ao small more or less balanced with not so little number of tc so i offer sacred forest small or medium.

Options:
Map visibility - reveal.
Start units - many.
Starting technologies - no techs.
Enable upgrades - yes.
Spell upgrades - no.
Pop limit - 200.

Races:
I prefer one race for all tournament.

Prohabits for balance (i will explain why):

Humans:
- no masonry and massive walls techs - that makes sub races buildings and mega building too cheap in construction. I think that should work like in aos - increase hp building on % not on one number for all buildings.
- not block all possible ways with magic barriers.

Orcs:
- no raptor riders in first 10 turns (too cheap strong lancer with scout speed).
- no dragon spam at all

Elfs:
... they seems fine if i forget something - remind

Undeads:
- no flesh golems in first 20 turns (too good siege and too strong unit at all for early game)

Dwarfs:
- no battle zeppelin (too much hp and speed for 8 turn unit)
- no construct transport zeppelin by workers

Scaledfolks:
- i need help here... i know too little about their gameplay...

Too late ... hope i forget nothing...

P.s. if you disagree with something, or have another point of view - tell us and offer alternative. So we could discuss and vote for proper variant if needed for makes rules and tournament at all more fair and comfort for everyone. We have almost whole week for it.

[makazuwr32]

Dwarves hopefully will get rebalance for alll their zeppelins in near future so that rule might be changed when version with proper stats for them will come out.

Double elimination system alas for 1 week is too much i must say.
Playing matches up until 2 victories is problematic for 1 week. In some cases it is hard to finish even 1 match per week (for example when one player is in japan and other is in london and they have 12 hours time difference).

[Vladneral]

Double elimination systems give more games for players who lose one time - not for winers. So why it should be a problem ?
That not game btw 2 players for 2 victory - if you lose you will be in another brakets with olympic system. So in total that add one more round.
Example 8 players: 1/4 final, 1/2 final, final
Will change to: 1/4 final, 1/2 final, final, superfinal(player with all wins, player with all wins and one lose)...
I will send brakets example a bit later

[makazuwr32]

Oh. Sorry, misunderstood.

This one is fine.

[Stratego (dev)]

i think we should not make rules like not to train this or that unit or tech.
do we have severe balance problem there?

i think if someone things orcs are good than be orcs.
i think i can beat any unit spam with any race - at least i will never say it was because that was unbalanced just because i could not beat it

we sould only restrict if a unit is really OP - but it is easier to fix and in next update it will not be op anymore.

so i suggest checking hte units you listed and if they are op than simply modify them BEFORE the tournament - i can promise a publish in 1 day after those modifications.

[Vladneral]

Yes we have hard problems with balance.

And it is wrong conception of thinking: that if you can beat spam of one unit then thats unit is ok.
of course you can beat one unit spam cause every unit have his strong and weak side, but... BUT if you use some suport with battle zeppelin spam (not only zeppelins - just use them as the main army power), then your opponent cant beat it no matter how good is he playing.
Raptor riders not op too but BUT if orc start with it then your scouts are almost die from one shoot from raptor. So you will have big disadvantage in production amount and you have lost because of that.
Masonry and massive walls give insane speed construction for buildings that have more than 200 hp at base so you can build castle for 10 actions from worker ! 10 ! That not a joke and you think that we dont need prohabits ? All that i said is out of balance so hard. We have more issues but that not so critical like problems above. If we want more or less the same conditions for all races i think - we should prohabit that what i spoke.
Or if you in power to fix it fast then that would be great.

[makazuwr32]

regarding buildings specifically i am working for good amount of time on it but......
We need to implement firstly proper siege units for all races.

Dwarves, humans, orcs have such units and with enough variety.
Elves and undeads have some problems but for now they can be fine mostly. It is not impossible for them to deal with enemy fortifications.
Scalefolks have close to no units who can be considered as proper siege apart from lizardman maceman, draconian maceman and turtleman. All 3 are melee units. Thus we are waiting firstly to implement some siege for them (stats are ready by the way! but we need images for them and their abilities) before buildings update.

Magic barriers if you do not put your adepts into battering rams is bearable even for scalefolks so i see that one as not required.
Agree with masonry and massive walls.

Dwarves will get when everything is fixed proper air fleet that is much more balanced and can be used. Transport zeppelin will not be constructible anyway after this update.

Agree with dragon spam (there are plans to rework this a bit but... we do not have time............), flesh golems (same problem - need images and jsoning for them, alas we can implement temporary solution for them as fixed range 1 (melee) to summon those).

Raptor riders are bearable in some cases - for example against elves they are not that fearsome. Undeads also can fight well against them in early game.

[IssaKobayashi]

Hi I want to join

[IssaKobayashi]

Rules:

General:
The games will be held under double elimination system for one week (we could make a break for christmas and New Year if needed). So if match not over for this time -the winner will determined by score.

Maps:
I think we need not large and not ao small more or less balanced with not so little number of tc so i offer sacred forest small or medium.

Options:
Map visibility - reveal.
Start units - many.
Starting technologies - no techs.
Enable upgrades - yes.
Spell upgrades - no.
Pop limit - 200.

Races:
I prefer one race for all tournament.

Prohabits for balance (i will explain why):

Humans:
- no masonry and massive walls techs - that makes sub races buildings and mega building too cheap in construction. I think that should work like in aos - increase hp building on % not on one number for all buildings.
- not block all possible ways with magic barriers.

Orcs:
- no raptor riders in first 10 turns (too cheap strong lancer with scout speed).
- no dragon spam at all

Elfs:
... they seems fine if i forget something - remind

Undeads:
- no flesh golems in first 20 turns (too good siege and too strong unit at all for early game)

Dwarfs:
- no battle zeppelin (too much hp and speed for 8 turn unit)
- no construct transport zeppelin by workers

Scaledfolks:
- i need help here... i know too little about their gameplay...

Too late ... hope i forget nothing...

P.s. if you disagree with something, or have another point of view - tell us and offer alternative. So we could discuss and vote for proper variant if needed for makes rules and tournament at all more fair and comfort for everyone. We have almost whole week for it.

For scalefolks maybe monitor lancer?

They are somehow equal to raptors for orcs on cost and with some backline like atltl hunters can deal with cavalry easy

[Stratego (dev)]

Yes we have hard problems with balance.

And it is wrong conception of thinking: that if you can beat spam of one unit then thats unit is ok.

naturally i did not think ONLY those units.

my point was: if you are right about these techs and units than i can fix them in about 10 minutes.
better fixing them than "not playing" imho.
Do u have specific suggestion what to change on these units techs to be "fair"?

if any of these are harder to fix only those should be mentioned as restriction - imho.

[Vladneral]

Yes we have hard problems with balance.

And it is wrong conception of thinking: that if you can beat spam of one unit then thats unit is ok.

naturally i did not think ONLY those units.

my point was: if you are right about these techs and units than i can fix them in about 10 minutes.
better fixing them than "not playing" imho.
Do u have specific suggestion what to change on these units techs to be "fair"?

if any of these are harder to fix only those should be mentioned as restriction - imho.

I am a bit confused - cause this problems are known for a long time - we discussed this with makkazuvr in discord and he have ideas how to fix it.

Raptor rider should cost 4 and gave 5/5/6 speed depends of tire all other is ok for him.
(Maybe the same with scaledfolk lancer, issakobayashi reminds that he have the same stats like orc raptor, i have no experiance with scaledfolks so here i cant be sure...)

Masonry and massive walls should works like in AoS:
+50% hp
+50% construct affect
+50% mend affect

The root of problems that now in AoF this works:
+50hp (no % just +50 hp to all buildings so than more hp building have than it more broken. )
+50% construct affect
+50% mend affect

For dwarfs zeppelins and undeads flesh golem, makkazuvr have already answered here.

[Stratego (dev)]

I dont see any specific suggestion from Makaw, only his plans for future.

we can change NOW the things that we can easily

so far this is the only ones i see clearly please confirm
1. Raptor rider should cost 4 and gave 5/5/6 speed depends of tire
2. scaledfolk lancer should cost 4 and gave 5/5/6 speed depends of tire
3. masonry should be: +50% hp +50% construct affect+50% mend affect

please write me
a) values and suggested change to these others too
b) or tell me if there is no suggestion yet - as the problem is more complex (this case maybe i will suggest a quick temporary fix)
- dwarfs zeppelins
- undeads flesh golem


in general: we should act instantly if there is a CONFIRMED balance problem. in about 3 days (i can do it i promise), at most on next update.So not keeping these problems in games for weeks or months.
And i dont mean here big overhauls, we talk about specific units here, we can easily nerf them if needed - later on an overhaul they can change again.
So: We should not wait for any big planned change for weeks months, we should act instantly on next update if there is a confirmed balance problem on a single unit. (we talk about single units here)

[makazuwr32]

About masonry and massive walls tech:
We are planning to change it to give bonus armor only.
No extra hp and/or mend/construction rate.
Give it +10 melee armor and +30 p.armor for each, cost must be 6 and 9 turns.

Scalefolk monitor rider is fine — it is not that powerful to be nerfed that way. Also scalefolks have no tiers so it can't have 5/5/6 speed. Keep it as it is for now.

Right. @Stratego (dev) can you update all lancer units to have "no counter attack" spec unit action in place of "counter attack without bonus" — bonus is still applied on counter attack.
With it it will be easier to deal with raptor riders and monitor lancers.

Dwarf zeppelin — it will be fixed once we will release current dev version (but before we need to fix some bugs they have on abilities) — currently it has just temporary stats "just because".

Flesh golem — initially we need to give for it tech to unlock it and 2 extra tiers: flesh homunculus (tier 1) and flesh titan (tier 3) — along with techs to unlock them; i have stats ready for them but... Images...
Anyway for now we can as temporary nerf (small one alas) reduce its casting range to be fixed range 1, require 2 corpses to summon, have vanishing 5 and cooldown 3 turns.

Dragon summon (both zombie dragon summon, skeleton drake/dragon/wyrm/hydra or green drake/dragon/wyrm) — fixed casting range 1.

Dragon summon (green drake/dragon/wyrm specifically) — tier 1 troll shaman must have only green drake summon, tier 2 troll shaman must have drake and dragon summon, tier 3 troll shaman must have all 3 summons. So remove from tier 1 dragon and wyrm summon abilities, from tier 2 wyrm summon ability.

[Stratego (dev)]

About masonry and massive walls tech:
We are planning to change it to give bonus armor only.
No extra hp and/or mend/construction rate.
Give it +10 melee armor and +30 p.armor for each, cost must be 6 and 9 turns.

i think masonry MUST give better construction rate by its name - so please suggest changed values here
massive walls is a good idea to give armors only you all like that betterm maybe cost 9 seems too much (like it will be a never invented side-tech)
so:
masonry: ?
massive walls: +10 armor +30 p.armor cost:?

Scalefolk monitor rider is fine — it is not that powerful to be nerfed that way. Also scalefolks have no tiers so it can't have 5/5/6 speed. Keep it as it is for now.

We can not leave it here if it is confirmed it is too powerful, and if u dont like the suggestion give a smaller change please

Dwarf zeppelin

good, so this is already fixed and will bout in next update. cool.

Flesh golem — initially we need to give for it tech to unlock it and 2 extra tiers: flesh homunculus (tier 1) and flesh titan (tier 3) — along with techs to unlock them; i have stats ready for them but... Images...

awesome: so flesh golem: casting range to be fixed range 1, require 2 corpses to summon, have vanishing 5 and cooldown 3 turns

Dragon summon

awesome, so these:
Dragon summon (both zombie dragon summon, skeleton drake/dragon/wyrm/hydra or green drake/dragon/wyrm) — fixed casting range 1.
Dragon summon (green drake/dragon/wyrm specifically) — tier 1 troll shaman must have only green drake summon, tier 2 troll shaman must have drake and dragon summon, tier 3 troll shaman must have all 3 summons. So remove from tier 1 dragon and wyrm summon abilities, from tier 2 wyrm summon ability.


---------------------------------------
so summing up the todo:

so far this is the only ones i see clearly please confirm
1. Raptor rider should cost 4 and gave 5/5/6 speed depends of tire
2. scaledfolk lancer should cost 4 and gave 5/5/6 speed depends of tire (here makaw might suggest some smaller change)
3. masonry should be: ?
4. massive walls should be: +10armor +30 parmor on cost: ?
5. flesh golem: casting range to be fixed range 1, require 2 corpses to summon, have vanishing 5 and cooldown 3 turns
6. Dragon summon (both zombie dragon summon, skeleton drake/dragon/wyrm/hydra or green drake/dragon/wyrm) — fixed casting range 1.
7. Dragon summon (green drake/dragon/wyrm specifically) — tier 1 troll shaman must have only green drake summon, tier 2 troll shaman must have drake and dragon summon, tier 3 troll shaman must have all 3 summons. So remove from tier 1 dragon and wyrm summon abilities, from tier 2 wyrm summon ability.

(zeppelins already fixed)

[makazuwr32]

Please do not change yet raptor riders and monitor riders stats.
Apart from this part:

Right. @Stratego (dev) can you update all lancer units to have "no counter attack" spec unit action in place of "counter attack without bonus" — bonus is still applied on counter attack.
With it it will be easier to deal with raptor riders and monitor lancers.

With this change they already will become easier to handle for other races because enemy cav will not get any damage from counter attacks.
It will affect alas not only raptor riders and monitor lancers but all lancers.

About this:

About masonry and massive walls tech:
We are planning to change it to give bonus armor only.
No extra hp and/or mend/construction rate.
Give it +10 melee armor and +30 p.armor for each, cost must be 6 and 9 turns.

i think masonry MUST give better construction rate by its name - so please suggest changed values here
massive walls is a good idea to give armors only you all like that betterm maybe cost 9 seems too much (like it will be a never invented side-tech)
so:
masonry: ?
massive walls: +10 armor +30 p.armor cost:?

We are planning to completely erase all extra xp and extra mend/construction rate given via techs for buildings for humans. Mainly because any extra % based hp given to castle with 7500 hp will result in way too high hp value.
So give both +10/+30 armor to buildings for both techs.
One for 6 turns, one for 9.
Otherwise we might change masonry to affect purely factories only. No extra stats to fortifications, other buildings or megas at all. In that case +50% to construction/mend rate and to hp is fine.

Dwarves might keep it but with MUCH smaller numbers (like maybe +5-10% hp and same amount of extra construction/mend rate).

[Anchar]

I suggested a year ago simply to reduce the speed of the rider on the orc raptor from 6 to 5 (is it still 6?), So he will not be able to catch up with the scouts, and it will be worse in relation to the orc scouts. As for a similar block in lizards, in my opinion their race is rather weak, so I think that you can take your time to make it more expensive.

[Stratego (dev)]

So give both +10/+30 armor to buildings for both techs.

I have a VETO on this. masonry should give construction bonus (hp not necessarily, but bonus yes, it can be smaller bonus if it too big now)


so we are here, Makaw say a few places other suggestions (i think the blue ones are not yet final)

1. Raptor rider
1/a: should cost 4 and gave 5/5/6 speed depends of tire
1/b: stay same except having "no counter attack" spec, so no bonus when it counters (makw idea)
2. scaledfolk lancer should cost 4 and gave 5/5/6 speed depends of tire (here makaw might suggest some smaller change)
3. masonry should be: what about +40% construct bonus +40% mend bonus but giving no HP at all. ?
4. massive walls should be: +10armor +30 parmor on cost: ? (makaw thinks cost 9, others what u think? isnt that too much?)
5. flesh golem: casting range to be fixed range 1, require 2 corpses to summon, have vanishing 5 and cooldown 3 turns
6. Dragon summon (both zombie dragon summon, skeleton drake/dragon/wyrm/hydra or green drake/dragon/wyrm) — fixed casting range 1.
7. Dragon summon (green drake/dragon/wyrm specifically) — tier 1 troll shaman must have only green drake summon, tier 2 troll shaman must have drake and dragon summon, tier 3 troll shaman must have all 3 summons. So remove from tier 1 dragon and wyrm summon abilities, from tier 2 wyrm summon ability.