Navy units - orcs unbalance

[Huttensohn]

Sorry that I have to open that old can again, but I played several test games on the oceans map against myself to theat naval capabilities of the races - and.
Orc is op again. I started a 1 vs 1 vs 1 game orc vs elf vs human, orc became quickly so powerful that elf and human worked together, they still lost.

then I did a 2 vs 1, human vs orc, and again, orc is kicking it, conquered the main island and built 3 volcanos and will win.



I have notified 3 phases now -

in the first phase, orc conquers tcs with his cheap water units, creates more and more units and expands and expands.

Then human gets troops + transport, conquers also some islands built towers, archers, some ships, etc. you can defend successfully and even conquer some things.

But once orc has his full army with troll throwers (who can be brought by transports and then stand and shoot in the water), shamans, leaders, chain fighter, it is basically over. Orc has the huge advantage of his naval units being amphibious, being able to fight on water, but also on shores, to fight conquer on land also . This makes them much more flexible.

humans have a kind of 2 component army/navy, having to balance ships and land units. if you over emphasis one and neglect the other, it really backfires.

You also really can't compare warships with units that can be buffed on see like the orc units. they have a complete army on the water, humans (and most other races) don't.

the destroyer is nice against ships, but against meele units with counter attack, he sinks quickly. (And that's a 2 turn merlock against a 7 turn destroyer)

as far as I understand it, the maximum catapult range is 8, the orc fire towers have bigger range and combined with archers inside them, orc can an defend against all thread coming from air and water. Human would have to destroy all towers in one turn in order to break through.

[makazuwr32]

Merlocks and other cheap water units i think should not have any bonuses against ships.

I'll discuss this with @Savra and after 5hat we will playtest this matter.

Another idea to balance them (a bit) is to allow their merlocks, merblins and other water-mainly units (alex wanted to add mertrolls as aquatic variant of normal trolls) to be trained either in buildings/tcs near water (or on bridges) or in their docks (ofc near free tile of water).
Same as for humans their ships and for elves their navy units.

[Huttensohn]

thanks for the constructive answer. I think it is fine if one race has a superiority against one race or on one map but I think 2:1 is just too much and of course orcs are not only strong in water.

yes, the ability to train the orc water fighters in the orc camp on land, then move through water, and then again on water to attack buildings, conquer tcs (even those not directly on the beach) is just very strong.
The half speed is of the course more relevant if the water is just a small part and most of the fighting takes place in the hinterland. But even then, water superiority is a good start for any invasion.
I like the idea of amphibious units a lot, though

[Huttensohn]

the strongest orc water units already cannot be trained in tcs, this is one good start for balancing

maybe it would be better to move them altogether into the Dock, however the nice concept of "all orcs in orc camp, all goblins in goblin camp" would be lost and you'd have one mixed race building (like cave for all giant /savage units)

[Savra]

I would be in agreement with you on the orcs naval units that aren't specified for fighting ships having no bonuses towards ships.

I also might be for allowing orc naval units be trained at only their tc and merlocks docks. As later we will eventually add mertrolls to the mix as well. Also the merblin servant will be updated so it has the same stats and cost as its land counterpart, but with speed changes of course.

Later we will also provide each race with naval fortifications later as well.

Do note though that if we remove the orcs navy from the other factories and adjust it so they are trainable only when tc is near water we would likely also have to do this with other races as well, who have similar styles eg scaledfolks and undead.

Also one thing stratego brought up is wether we should make poison stackable like in aos, if so then we would need to adjust its damage output accordingly, but it would make fighting tougher enemies a lot more easier.

[Anchar]

Do note though that if we remove the orcs navy from the other factories and adjust it so they are trainable only when tc is near water we would likely also have to do this with other races as well, who have similar styles eg scaledfolks and undead.

As far as I know, the undead have only 1 such fighter - a pirate, not a great loss. In general, I am for this, since, in principle, as far as I understand, people will not have such fighters except for the water dragon, which is already in a separate building.

[Anchar]

As for the poison, I'm sure that this boat will cost at least 5 moves and cannot be stronger than a troll thrower in the water who turns out to be able to swim on a boat? It seemed to me that this opportunity was cut out and the giants do not swim in boats, what else can he do? Should I marry him?

[Anchar]

Also, this may be off-topic, but I see that the ship of people sailing (arrow thrower) is clearly outdated since it was copied from the era of strategies (like the entire fleet of people), it lacks the firing range, as well as bonuses, and by itself it costs 4 moves, which is expensive, people really lack a cheap combat fleet.

[Savra]

Dwarves will also lack a cheap fleet, however that's why I suggested that we make all human ships and dwarves soon to be ships, have the ability to carry units as well as allow them to act.

As for poison and fire ships we might just end up making those effects as abilities instead but it would be open for more ships, eg warship, flagship, ballista ship.

As for Giants, we will be removing all giants ability to be transported in transports, that includes giants of other races as well.

As for the warship being outdated, AOF's one operates slightly differently from AOS as AOS's variant seems to only be effected by blacksmith upgrades, while AOF's variant is affected by those, tier upgrades, and another set of upgrades designed for humans mechanical units. So they have their similarities and their differences. Ours also max's range out at 9 so that's pretty good compared to AOS's variant.

[Huttensohn]

I never Played aos but always expected that the warship was taken from there. The human Fleet seems to be balanced quite good against itself (destroyer, war ship transport) but not against other races, also because the other races don't even have those clear cut categories for their navy.