Engineers and warsmith — ANSWERED

[DreJaDe]

What's up with engineers and war smith having the same cost but warsmith being better overall?

[makazuwr32]

Dwarven ones?
They both will be replaced anyway.

[Savra]

I can probably remove those now since the miner will take the place as the dwarves laborer.

[Anchar]

Since the topic is about dwarfs, tell me a treatment of 9 units for a dwarf cleric is planned or is it a mistake?

[Savra]

Sounds like a bug, I'll fix it when I get to it.

[makazuwr32]

Dwarven cleric seems was not beed properly upscaled.

[DreJaDe]

Wait..

Currently for me, the warsmith fills up their slow build speed. Surely there's a balance for this right? Their current unit tier upgrade is the slowest already and if they are suddenly removed, it would be even slower.

This would also affect my current 5 games if they are suddenly removed. I know this isn't your problem but pls be considerate.

[Savra]

I know that, the miner costs 2 turns though, and would be the only laborer able to build, he can build a mine.

The mine will have the ability to speed up production of all surounding buildings by 1, the ability has a cool down however so there will be techs coming for them that can either speed this up, increase the range, or give it additional abilities that speed production up for longer periods of time.

However it would have to be 1 of these 3 options for upgrades decided here. So whichever we choose, we throw out the rest.

[Savra]

Btw, we might up dwarven workers mend rate though so they're better.

[makazuwr32]

Dwarven worker should have 52 mend rate. Please check that.

Later he will get tiers and 2 upgrades to his mend rate.

[Anchar]

By the way, I would also like to know about airships and mortarmen, now airships and mortars are quite persistent, which allows them to drop mortars into the rear and, if opponents are unprepared, destroy enemy groups and defenses. However, they can also fly back. I think the airships will be weakened when the ranged troops gain the anti-flying bonus, but mortars costing 5 moves + cheapened by mines will be too strong in my opinion.

[DreJaDe]

By the way, I would also like to know about airships and mortarmen, now airships and mortars are quite persistent, which allows them to drop mortars into the rear and, if opponents are unprepared, destroy enemy groups and defenses. However, they can also fly back. I think the airships will be weakened when the ranged troops gain the anti-flying bonus, but mortars costing 5 moves + cheapened by mines will be too strong in my opinion.

They're limited by the fact that they can only be trained on ranged barracks though.

But if I'm not wrong, there's a plan back then to remove the airships from Dwarves or something like that.

But I believe for now, their quite balanced still.

[Savra]

Air ships will be moved to dwarves sub race, gnomes.

Mortars will be changed so they're more costly but better, plus they will have more upgrades and tiers, with an additional 2 cannons.

[makazuwr32]

Mortar will be changed into trebushet-like siege (with even higher range and cost) while loosing any non-building bonuses and power range while gaining miss chance and comparable to trebushet damage output.

Alas it can be changed into shooting twice at 40% damage on average per shot when compared to trebushet (damage penalty for 2 shots).

There also will be next siege units:
Light cannon — low range (max 7) siege with unique to it upgrade for +1 speed (up to 3) and pin-point accuracy (sort of ballista with lesser range but higher raw damage, not sure about bonuses);

Heavy cannon — will have 2 forms and 1 unique ability:
Siege form — up to 9 attack range, 5-15% bonus to giants (mainly to overcome armor and allow for perfect accuracy against giant units) and anti-building bonuses, comparable to catapult damage (but a bit higher if we do not count power range);
Explosive projectile — researchable ability that gives for next turn +1/35% power range to heavy cannon, exclusive to siege mode ability, has cooldown 4 turns and initial cooldown;
Buckshot form — massively reduces attack (-70-90% attack reduce) and range (-3-4), looses all bonuses but gains massive aoe (+3/100% power range with full damage over all aoe) and power base (guaranteed minimal damage), also locked by research, has cooldown 2 turns and initial cooldown for transform;

Demolition engineer — low range (5-6) anti building thrower with aoe (throws dynamite), maybe will have tech to get second action, will also have some unique abilities:
Place landmine — invisible trap unit with vanishing, 1 turn cooldown;
Place explosive barrel — visible suicide unit with goblin grenade-like ability (deals massive damage to structures, fourth best damage output to them after siege engine, heavy cannon and rune of earthquake, 1 turn cooldown);
Disarm explosive — anti-explosives "disenchant" ability;
Rocket launcher — aoe fireball-like ability with no bonuses, has good cooldown (3-5 turns);
Construct suicide golem — similar to explosive barrel but can move around, has initial cooldown, high cooldown (5-8 turns) and no vanishing.
All abilities exept golem will be affected by spell range.

Siege engine — steam powered close range (up to 3) anti-building armored vehicle that deals biggest damage to enemy structures in the whole game... if approaches them. Has close to none damage towards any non-building targets (no miss chance but its max attack will be around 15-20 while base attack will be less than 9). Due to upgrades of engine by gnomes can achieve speed 4. It will be most expensive siege of dwarves but also most healthy one (will have toughness similar to summonable ent of elves if not a bit higher).

.

As for airforce of dwarves:
Transport zeppelin and battle zeppelin will be updated and locked behind flight tech (cost will be increased to 6-7 turns, researchable at tc and siege building).

Transport zeppelin would be able to transport only normal-sized foot land units, speed will be requiced to 4, will not be constructible by workers (only trainable), will have base carry cap reduced to 1 (but will be affected by carry cap increasing techs up to 3), no armors (and won't get any), lowered health (down to 100). Cost will be 6.

Battle zeppelin will loose its siege role (it will keep its anti-building bonuses but damage output will be lower than of siege units), will get several abilities (several ammunition types) and changed into proper bullet hell flying unit. Also is not constructible by workers (only producable in factories and megas).

Dwarves also will get next flying units:
Helicopter — light fast flying scout unit with anti-air functions (extremly low damage and anti-air bonuses) and researchable true sight (can see invisible units ability);

Juggernaut zeppelin — most powerful and most slow (speed 2, with upgrade 3) flying fortress of doom. Locked behind gnomes.

[DreJaDe]

Mortar will be changed into trebushet-like siege (with even higher range and cost) while loosing any non-building bonuses and power range while gaining miss chance and comparable to trebushet damage output.

Alas it can be changed into shooting twice at 40% damage on average per shot when compared to trebushet (damage penalty for 2 shots).

There also will be next siege units:
Light cannon — low range (max 7) siege with unique to it upgrade for +1 speed (up to 3) and pin-point accuracy (sort of ballista with lesser range but higher raw damage, not sure about bonuses);

Heavy cannon — will have 2 forms and 1 unique ability:
Siege form — up to 9 attack range, 5-15% bonus to giants (mainly to overcome armor and allow for perfect accuracy against giant units) and anti-building bonuses, comparable to catapult damage (but a bit higher if we do not count power range);
Explosive projectile — researchable ability that gives for next turn +1/35% power range to heavy cannon, exclusive to siege mode ability, has cooldown 4 turns and initial cooldown;
Buckshot form — massively reduces attack (-70-90% attack reduce) and range (-3-4), looses all bonuses but gains massive aoe (+3/100% power range with full damage over all aoe) and power base (guaranteed minimal damage), also locked by research, has cooldown 2 turns and initial cooldown for transform;

Demolition engineer — low range (5-6) anti building thrower with aoe (throws dynamite), maybe will have tech to get second action, will also have some unique abilities:
Place landmine — invisible trap unit with vanishing, 1 turn cooldown;
Place explosive barrel — visible suicide unit with goblin grenade-like ability (deals massive damage to structures, fourth best damage output to them after siege engine, heavy cannon and rune of earthquake, 1 turn cooldown);
Disarm explosive — anti-explosives "disenchant" ability;
Rocket launcher — aoe fireball-like ability with no bonuses, has good cooldown (3-5 turns);
Construct suicide golem — similar to explosive barrel but can move around, has initial cooldown, high cooldown (5-8 turns) and no vanishing.
All abilities exept golem will be affected by spell range.

Siege engine — steam powered close range (up to 3) anti-building armored vehicle that deals biggest damage to enemy structures in the whole game... if approaches them. Has close to none damage towards any non-building targets (no miss chance but its max attack will be around 15-20 while base attack will be less than 9). Due to upgrades of engine by gnomes can achieve speed 4. It will be most expensive siege of dwarves but also most healthy one (will have toughness similar to summonable ent of elves if not a bit higher).

.

As for airforce of dwarves:
Transport zeppelin and battle zeppelin will be updated and locked behind flight tech (cost will be increased to 6-7 turns, researchable at tc and siege building).

Transport zeppelin would be able to transport only normal-sized foot land units, speed will be requiced to 4, will not be constructible by workers (only trainable), will have base carry cap reduced to 1 (but will be affected by carry cap increasing techs up to 3), no armors (and won't get any), lowered health (down to 100). Cost will be 6.

Battle zeppelin will loose its siege role (it will keep its anti-building bonuses but damage output will be lower than of siege units), will get several abilities (several ammunition types) and changed into proper bullet hell flying unit. Also is not constructible by workers (only producable in factories and megas).

Dwarves also will get next flying units:
Helicopter — light fast flying scout unit with anti-air functions (extremly low damage and anti-air bonuses) and researchable true sight (can see invisible units ability);

Juggernaut zeppelin — most powerful and most slow (speed 2, with upgrade 3) flying fortress of doom. Locked behind gnomes.

How could a airships be slower than wagons?

It's like the rhino of dwarves right now that is even slower than foot units which doesn't make sense.

[Anchar]

Well, as far as transport zeppelin is concerned, the statistics looks really too underestimated. It seems to me that it would be possible to leave the possibility of his construction and his speed, given that he will not be able to transfer mortars and will not be able to reroll many archers in the early stages of the game, and will also be very vulnerable to attacks then in my opinion it will not be too strong.

[Anchar]

.

[Savra]

I think the airship will be fine with armour upgrades.

The dwarven rhino rider is that way primarily because it's got good armour, good attack, good hp, and has both anti mounted and siege bonuses. Plus it's ability allows it to increase it's speed to 4 plus give it an additional 30 attack I believe.

I think the reason the dwarven zeppelin carrier is going to be slower than the wagon is because it's able to cross all terrain.

[makazuwr32]

Size of zeppelin is a bit smaller than of carriage (of transporting part at least), inefficient engines and good good transporting mounts for that carriage are making that speed difference.

[Anchar]

I understand that if the transport airship is at the gnomes, then most likely it will be locked by a sub-fraction (I don’t know the dwarfs will have subractions locked like all other races?) because of what it will become meaningless with such statistics, since then the option of quickly capturing the centers disappears due to its appearance in the later stages of the game when the enemy already has a strong defense. Transferring 1 crossbowman or hammer for 6 moves is pointless in my opinion, given that this airship will be weak and will not be able to return from the rear, as it will probably be quickly shot. The cost, taking into account the mines, will probably be acceptable if it drops to 4, but I would also like to be able to build it, maybe you can just reduce the construction speed and lock it with the gnom sub-faction?

[Savra]

Actually, I think the zeppelin, gyrocoptor, and war zeppelin will be part of main race but locked behind a flight tech, not a sub race.

The reason dwarves don't have a place to research sub races yet is because I didn't have enough time to build their embassy and tech, plus implement them at the moment.

We might also move the ornithopter from humans to dwarves too if we choose to do that.

[makazuwr32]

I prefer to make ornithopter as fun unit reference to aos.

As for helicopter, transport zeppelin and war zeppelin — they will be locked behind flight tech only that is researchable at tc. Similar to how humans have their siege locked behind ballistic tech.

Gnomes will bring alas some improvements to mechanical units and siege units. Some of them will be unique (i mean that tech will affect only single type pf unit).
And ofc most dangerous mechanical units like siege engine, juggernaut zeppelin, submarine and some more....

Alas maybe transport zeppelin should be a bit more sturdy for 6 turns cost...

[DreJaDe]

I prefer to make ornithopter as fun unit reference to aos.

As for helicopter, transport zeppelin and war zeppelin — they will be locked behind flight tech only that is researchable at tc. Similar to how humans have their siege locked behind ballistic tech.

Gnomes will bring alas some improvements to mechanical units and siege units. Some of them will be unique (i mean that tech will affect only single type pf unit).
And ofc most dangerous mechanical units like siege engine, juggernaut zeppelin, submarine and some more....

Alas maybe transport zeppelin should be a bit more sturdy for 6 turns cost...

I actually preferred if they were faster instead of sturdier, they're airships after all.

Also, would there be something like high level bomber that would only be countered by Flying enemy unlike now which could be reached by some archers?

[Anchar]

I hope that it will not, because then this unit will be under the protection of archers who will easily kill any flying opponents flying up, unless it is destroyed by some kind of rider on a pegasus or griffin with 1-2 blows, like cavalry with spearmen.

[makazuwr32]

There can be speed upgrade for transport zeppelin in gnomes sub but at base speed 4 for sure.

[makazuwr32]

Considered as ANSWERED.