Stealth unit problems (except visibility problems) IMPLEMENTED

[Stratego (dev)]

Here i try to collect the "mechanical" problems and ideas of this thing as in alternatives we have too many new stealth units, so it gets bigger problem now.

(please dont mention here
- the multiplyer "enemy can see my stealth units movement" problem - as that has its own topic (and also is a hard to fix one as i ruined everything when i tried
- any other "stealth-visibility" problem you know - probably has other topic, or if not please open a new topic if u know one.
).

what i know about these problems are these
1. Interrupted and lost movement: if i stumble in a enemy stealth unit (that i have not seen earlier) it stops my movement making me angry as i could have passed it and i still have movement to use. In extreme cases i do not move anywhere still losing movement points (as start location was the only tile i can stop before the stealth unit)
2. Revealed stealth still works differently: if i already see the enemy stealt (non-trap/non-landmine unit) unit (eg. i have unit beside it) i still can not pass it (eg. flying over or under if that is a flyer)
3. Player can not select path: if i "know" a landmine is on a tile and i want my unit to go around that tile - i can not change the path if the auto-path goes tru that tile having that mine.
4. ground/water traps to avoid exploding under flying units they sohuld fly over without any problem.

please tell me if u see any more problems about it.

IDEA 1: Using remaining movement points: I have an idea that might make the problems being not hat bad (however it will not solve them completely):
if a unit stumbles in a stealth unit
- can be a landmine like - making damage to me
- can be a normal stealth unit making me stop next to him (to be more exact: on the previous free tile in the auto-path)
than the unit will still be able to move after the interruption of its movement

solves/eases only these two: "1. Interrupted and lost movement", "2. Revealed stealth still works differently"

eg:
- tank (speed 5) has a spy 2 tiles away and goes into it, it stops right before it and tank can turn back with 4 remaining movements, or kill the spy and move further 4 more tiles.
- tank (speed 5) has a landmine 2 tiles away and goes into it its stops its movement on mine, receives the damage on mine explosion, but still have the remaining 3 movement points to move further or back.

and so on.

[Endru1241]

Wait.
There is more types of stealth units.
A. STEALTH_UNIT (or "isStealthUnit": true) or STEALTH_ONLY_UNIT - which should not interrupt movement.
B. STEALTH_EXPLODES_ON_STEP - which only makes unit that is stepped on execute single attack with "arrowType":"EXPLOSION" and kills it anyway
C. STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_ON - which actually should interrupt movement and make unit passing step on
D. STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED - which should interrupt movement a tile before stepping on

So idea 1 is making all those irrelevant?

Imho - to step on regular A type unit movement should be consumed - it's not simple trampling over it, but rather if unit would stop then (idk prepare for night or something) it would find and destroy it, but it shouldn't if it just moves further (or back). It should take certain dedication.
Otherwise this type of stealth would be useless.

Maybe I am understanding something wrongly, but if you are blocked - isn't it because game design leader specifically set unit to have type C or D stealth?
If it's D - It was probably to avoid horrible weakness of being possible to be stepped on.
Even by weakest possible unit.

So imo to make things a little easier game engine just needs more specs to increase options:
- e.g. STEALTH_STEP_BLOCKED_IF_STEPPED - doesn't interrupt movement if it would pass over unit, only interrupts if last step would step on unit, so that would be most logical stealth type to assign to e.g. hidden infantry
- e.g. STEALTH_EXPLODES_IF_PASSED_ON_GROUND - unlike explosion wouldn't require setting STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_ON additionally, because it would make attack if unit would have one of the movement point on the tile, but allows further movement - btw. this should be the only option to use IDEA 1 on. And default behaviour of mines or similar traps, that are not supposed to really stop unit.

And talking about missing options something like STEALTH_ATTACK_ON_BLOCKING would be great option for ambush oriented units and STEALTH_ATTACK_ON_PASSING would be great for e.g. AA guns and AoS reefs.

[Stratego (dev)]

STEALTH_ONLY_UNIT also interrupts movement i think, but not sure.

[Stratego (dev)]

but you are right, it was about moth bomber in AOG, and treally it is set to be "STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED" and i think it is a mistake.

Midonik will tell me if he need this for something or not.

[Stratego (dev)]

wait maybe Midonik did not wanted the bomber to be stepped on and so bomber dies. that is why he needs STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok what about IDEA 1 is for only "STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED" units?

[Endru1241]

wait maybe Midonik did not wanted the bomber to be stepped on and so bomber dies. that is why he needs STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED.

It's probably like that.
But in case of stealth bomber there is actually no good way to deal with just specs.
It would need some sort of much more extensive changes as e.g. more unit layers.
But still effect could be decreased if some other solution would be used.
Like:

STEALTH_STEP_BLOCKED_IF_STEPPED - doesn't interrupt movement if it would pass over unit, only interrupts if last step would step on unit, so that would be most logical stealth type to assign to e.g. hidden infantry

Bombers wouldn't block movement unless unit was supposed to step on it.
Much less chance means much less annoying (and less abusable), right?

ok what about IDEA 1 is for only "STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED" units?

- e.g. STEALTH_EXPLODES_IF_PASSED_ON_GROUND - unlike explosion wouldn't require setting STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_ON additionally, because it would make attack if unit would have one of the movement point on the tile, but allows further movement - btw. this should be the only option to use IDEA 1 on. And default behaviour of mines or similar traps, that are not supposed to really stop unit.

If IDEA 1 would be used on units, that block movement, then such option would be even worse than leaving it as stealth only (type A).
Because not only enemy would destroy your unit just by passing, but also not even loose rest of the movement.
And it was set specifically to avoid such weakness.
Why make it even worse?

[Stratego (dev)]

specs must not contain ground or air information.

that is a wrong way - i know we have few like IS_FLYING but is should be removed / used other ways later (like we did on product listing on steppable non steppable terrains thingie - or some kind of layers as u mention - so i dont want to make any specs doing other ways)


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also i am getting confused. on idea1 the main goal is to fix the "STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED" units, i mean you stop moving but you can go further or back. isnt that good?

so it ment to fix (or ease the pain on) these:
1. Interrupted and lost movement (STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED case)
2. Revealed stealth still works differently (STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED case)

[Endru1241]

specs must not contain ground or air information.

that is a wrong way - i know we have few like IS_FLYING but is should be removed / used other ways later (like we did on product listing on steppable non steppable terrains thingie)


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Right - forgot about that.
It is indeed bad design.
Then something like STEALTH_EXPLODES_IF_PASSED_AND_CAN_ATTACK - it would only work on units, that unit having this spec can attack.
I wrote this ON_GROUND only thinking about ground/water traps to avoid exploding under flying units.

also i am getting confused. on idea1 the main goal is to fix the "STOP_BEFORE ME" units, i mean you stop moving but you can go further or back. isnt that good?

STEALTH_STEP_BLOCKED_IF_STEPPED - this one could also work to allow further movement, except there is only one move point remaining - didn't think it is so important to mention.
The main point is if those two would be added AND game designers changed STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED to STEALTH_STEP_BLOCKED_IF_STEPPED for units, that should not really block movement - there would be much less of them.
Meanwhile if STEALTH_EXPLODES_ON_STEP would be changed to STEALTH_EXPLODES_IF_PASSED_AND_CAN_ATTACK there wouldn't be that much need to preserve STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_ON spec, which interrupts movement too.

But completely removing the old ones is not good solution, as many ground traps are meant to work exactly like that.

[Stratego (dev)]

i might not understand what you write well but maybe misunderstanding, you write new or existing specs but with wrong naming, we have:

STEALTH_ONLY_UNIT, //this is a indicator of a unit that is not an ASSASSIN but onlya stealth/invisible unit.
STEALTH_EXPLODES_ON_STEP, //ise this to make damaging units, that damages on step (like a trap, or landmine)
STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_ON, // unit can not go tru it, it will stop on it, destroying stealth unit (for land/sea mines)
STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED, // unit can not go tru it, it will stop right before it, not destroying stealth unit (for submarines)

we only have these, and i do not suggested to introduce any new here (and i could not understand if u suggest than for what reason)
STEALTH_ONLY_UNIT - for spy unit: means you step on and it dies, if you step over you go over and stealth unit can be unnoticed (i hope i am right here?)
STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_ON - for mine/trap things: damasges unit and stealth unit dies.
STEALTH_EXPLODES_ON_STEP - for mine/trap things: i am not even sure why there is 2 of these settings - i think all landmines have bot this and the prevous...
STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED - eg. moth bomber or WW2 submarine: the STEALTH_ONLY_UNIT that is too valuable to die on step - so it "blocks" movement, but should not do anything else.

(i wrote wrong naming earlier, so:)
on idea1 the main goal is to fix the "STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED" units, i mean you stop moving but you can go further or back. isnt that good?

also

ground/water traps to avoid exploding under flying units

this is a new stealth problem that will NOT be solved by IDEA 1. moreover: i think it will not be solved until i introduce more units on one tile thingie that might be many years - however i listed it in first post now

[Endru1241]

I use STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED for AoS reefs.

It is supposed to interrupt movement, deal damage, but not be destroyed itself.
How would simple wooden ship destroy huge underwater sharp stones?

I achieved desired effect by using STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED and aura dealing damage.
If STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED would allow further movement, then it would loose half of it's effect.

Sure - it's only neutral map editor unit, but I don't know if something similar doesn't exist in other variants.

Just to explain - I don't want to use STEALTH_EXPLODES_ON_STEP with STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_ON, exactly because reefs are not supposed to be destroyed.

As for options - I always try to mention missing things if it's similar topic - maybe I am weird, but I prefer to make few things at once if I have to read into particular part the code anyway. To avoid going back into it few times.
And currently there are no options for:
- units waiting in ambush, that should both stop and damage enemy unit - AoF scalefolk units after using ambush ability
They currently use STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED to at least deal damage in next turn if they survive the attack.
Once IDEA 1 would be introduced for this spec it destroys any usage like that
- units that should deal damage to passing, but not stop enemy unit - possibly some traps, not even necessarily hidden fire positions (AA)

[Stratego (dev)]

i see so if i make IDEA 1 than you need a new spec that will be not effected by IDEA 1 and we can call it like STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED_AND_HIT or something.

meaning works like STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED but also removes remaining movement (as currently STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED does) AND deals damage like it were stepped - am i right?
(remark: if moving unit is not stopping right before reef it should not work like this, but as the normal STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED - as would look weird if a ship does not even reach the reef and still got damage.)

thinking i would do this instead:
new spec:
- STEALTH_FORCES_MOVEMENT_BLOCKED meaning you will lose movement (no damage)
modified spec:
- STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED changed to stop movement, but movement can continue, and no damage

AND
a) you can combine any of these with a stealth unit with "power>0", and that will deal damage to moving unit ONLY IF it landed beside it (and it is a validTarget to the unit) - not sure good for Moth bomber/submarine like units
b) OR you can combine the above with EXPLODES_ON_STEP thing that will deal damage to moving unit ONLY IF it landed beside it (and it is a validTarget to the unit) - not sure good for Moth bomber/submarine like units

thinking again - i think green is the better solution

[Endru1241]

So b) solution would change current working of EXPLODES_ON_STEP and make it work with specs:
- STEALTH_FORCES_MOVEMENT_BLOCKED - checks if blocked unit is valid target and if it is executes with "arrowType":"EXPLOSION", attacking unit then receives normal counter (if it can) and is not destroyed automatically (only if counter-attack kills it)
- STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED - just like above, but also leaves reduced movement points for blocked unit (and action if it had any)
- STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_ON - checks if forced to step unit is valid target, then executes attack and dies from being stepped on
Do I understand this idea it right?

idea 2:
Why not also make STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_ON check before forcing unit to stop if it's valid target and only force it to stop if it is ?
Wouldn't that solve problem 4. better?
Or is that impossible?

[Stratego (dev)]

i think you are right!

i change the current setting and unit that can can eg. fly tru another unit will not get blocked

lets try it and see if any other change needed.

[Stratego (dev)]

also....

(forget this "also")

[Stratego (dev)]

also...(Nr 2)

I found out that all stealth units (even the STEALTH_ONLY units too) were considered as IS_STEPPABLE, however we have a spec that say IS_STEPPABLE.

so
1. i fixed it and only IS_STEPPABLE and IS_STEALTH (or isStealthUnit=true) units will be steppable! (STEALTH_ONLY ones are not)
- IS_STEPPABLE tobe added: i believe many stealth_only units in many alternatives needs to have IS_STEPPABLE from this point please list me which should be this kind.
- STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED to be removed: Eg. Moth bomber, submarines after this fix it will no longer steppable so it should not need STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED at all.

my only concern is the running games - how badly will they be ruined by this is_steppable thingie?
eg:
- landmines/traps has no IS_STEPPABLE in AOW, so they need to be added and in all running games all landmines will work like blockades (eg. caltrops) instead.
- i found no other example that will get ruined - do u know any?

traps workaround v1: what if i put in temporarily that "STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_ON" also mean IS_STEPPABLE for a while 1-2 months - until all running games run out? (as all trap like ones have STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_ON set)
traps workaround v2: Or i can put in permanently that STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_ON also mean IS_STEPPABLE so no jsons need change and in modders lounge i write that this spec mean IS_STEPPABLE too.
(btw i made this workaround for now)

[Stratego (dev)]

ok, it is uos 20 in these alternatives: AOS, AOF, AOW, AOG

changes already: in blocking stealth units work same way as others (will block/stop only units that would block if they were not stealth units), eg. a flying stealth eg. AOG:moth will never block a ground unit, a grounded stealth eg. AOW:landmine (if can be flown tru is set) will never block a plane.

testing: needs extensive testing on all sthealth unit types, i might have ruined the old ones too (eg. assassin)

required json modifications: many stealth units that used STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED to avoid being stepped on, should have removed this spec form its json (eg. moth bomber, all submarined not sure what else), until it is not removed allunits still block every other unit (eg. moth, submarines)

[Stratego (dev)]

also it is ready that if a movement was blocked by a non steppable stealth unit (without STEALTH_FORCES_STEP_BLOCKED) than the moving unit retains the remaining movements so it can go elsewhere in that turn

in AOG/AOS/AOF/AOW uos 20

[makazuwr32]

You mean if for example my unit has 10 movement, moved for 4 tiles, was blocked by this invisible wall and has left 6 movement points i can move it by these 6 tiles than?

[Stratego (dev)]

WALL? whic unit it is what setting it has?

invisibles by deafult no blockers.

[Stratego (dev)]

this mean if u eg. click-moved on a invisible non-steppable tile, you stop beside it (or many tiles beside if was sorrounded) and you still can move

[makazuwr32]

this mean if u eg. click-moved on a invisible non-steppable tile, you stop beside it (or many tiles beside if was sorrounded) and you still can move

That what i meant.
Question is if that unit who was stopped by this invisible non-steppable unit can move only by left over amount of movement it has or by full movement.

You mean if for example my unit has 10 movement, moved for 4 tiles, was blocked by this invisible wall and has left 6 movement points i can move it by these 6 tiles than?

In this scenario but unit moved for 8 tiles before it stopped.
After it was stopped it can move for how many tiles?
2? Or full movement of 10 tiles?

[Stratego (dev)]

only by left over amount of movement

yes, only the remaining movement.

In this scenario but unit moved for 8 tiles before it stopped.
After it was stopped it can move for how many tiles?
2? Or full movement of 10 tiles?

2 tiles

[makazuwr32]

Than this is fine.

[phoenixffyrnig]

Possibly related to the changes going on here - I've just stepped on and killed my own spy Range of movement for my worker showed up including the spy's tile, so in the interests of science, I went for it. It behaved just like an unseen enemy stealth unit, I was able to move on the square and it simply disappeared.

(in AoS, public version, multiplayer match, just now)

[Stratego (dev)]

yes i just made many changes on stealth things.
i will check this case too - thanks!

[Stratego (dev)]

i think all problems solved from there in DEV version - please confirm.

[b2198]

I am not sure if this is the right thread to post it, but I just found an issue regarding invisible unit targetability:

opponent's turn: the opponent moved a wagon with an assassin inside it near my lines and killed my scout bird that had vision of the area, leaving me without true sight of the tile (not sure in which order, do you remember, @Foxious ?)

my turn afterwards: I moved another scout bird to vision range of the wagon, and then destroyed it, revealing the assassin inside, but now I can't target it, even though I have range for that with multiple units, and can target other things with these same units.

[b2198]

I went back to finish my turn, and the moment I moved another unit, the assassin became targetable again, so it's only a minor issue.

[Stratego (dev)]

how can you reveal an assassin in a wagon with a bird?