Corpse Flinger — IMPLEMENTED

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Savra
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Savra »

Summonable by necromancer
Requires 4 corpses. Requires research.
Corpse flinger:
Image
Hp:18
Atk:12
Rng:3-7
Sight:7
Spd:2, water:1
Arm:0
P.arm:8
Res:0%
Abilities:
Image
Fling corpse: requires corpse, rng:6, dmg:12, aoe:1, poison weapon, +150% buildings, +450% fortifications, +900% megas.
Bonuses:
200% buildings
500% fortifications
1500% megas


Tech:
Image
Corpse flinger:
Cost:6
Researched at crypt.

Upgrades:
Skeleton upgrades.
Possibly a range upgrade.
Last edited by Savra on Thu May 21, 2020 5:39 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Savra »

Tech.
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Savra
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Savra »

Ability.
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Alexander82
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Alexander82 »

In general I don't love this idea (Woah, humans have catapults! Let's make one out of bones!)

That said I think that corpses in general aren't a great ammo to use against walls, and that if such a unit would be made for undeads it wouldn't be a summon but a normally recruited unit that is also buildable (like human catapults).

The fact for it to have poison weapons seems a bit forced as well (a decaying corpse smell and might make you puke but poisoning is a bit more specific) and in general is not great for a siege unit made to be effective against buildings.

What if that worked two way, like cannon fodder? A normal attack that deals some bonused damage against buildings (no special cost needed) and another, after a research, made by sacrificing a skeleton? (corpses are more difficult to handle and if you reanimate a corpse you can use it as ammo as well) to deal hp based or power based damage.

It might also have another tech as well that sacrifice a corpse to inflict burning to a proper target

needless to say it should also have the usual miss chance for siege units (that comes into play only when they target a unit with more than 0 speed, so it would also work well with chill knights and mummies that can reduce speed)
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by makazuwr32 »

I'd say that ability must be just poison cloud without cooldown but with sacrifice. No damage to buildings.

Attack and attack range can be a bit higher alas as for me. Summoning cost must be higher as well (4-5 skeletons).
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Alexander82 »

Isn't poison cloud useless for a siege unit?
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Dagravian »

I was wondering, does these sieges need to be skeletal? I've been looking around and i got some nice alternatives.

I think this flinger could be used as shortcut intead of sacrificing the skeletons. Something like what siege tower does and what cannon folder attempt to do, you put some skeleton or zombie inside and next turn this unit could have fly and it gets extra speed... Its not like they would waste corpses to shoot them on walls, they can just use it to be throwed over them... What could possibly go wrong? They are already dead xD They just would put theirself together and kill everything in the path to open the gates from inside.

Btw... Poison in undead vs undead is useless... In general some acid spliters and sprayers would be nice. And in this case, i think the corpse ammunition could just explode in a rain of digestive acid instead.
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by makazuwr32 »

poison cloud will be useful and anyway it also will have its main attack as siege.
Think about "poison cloud" as alternative attack against living units of enemy that can't miss unlike direct attack.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Dagravian »

I still think poison doesn't fit this...

With 18 hp, 4 p.armor and 6 range... Pretty sure it will be dead before having the chance of doing something to defensive buildings. In fact would be worse than skull throwers...

Wait... I don't think we have a monster unit for skull thrower... So Why not just make this be the monster version of the skull thrower? Skull thrower throws just flamming skulls, flinger would send the whole burning package :lol:
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Midonik »

Kinda what I thought - if a buring skull can somehow be effective against buildings, then a whole bunch of burning corpses shot by a catapult should be pretty effective.
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Savra »

That's basically what Alexander said,

It would have a range and attack increase as makazuwru said, and will have 2 abilities, maybe 3:

Fling corpse: it's more so something that brings disease upon the enemy, in medieval times one of the tactics was to fling disease ridden corpses over the enemy walls and infect the enemies troops and populace. Later when zombie infections become a thing, this ability could apply that effect instead.

Fling burning corpse: fires a burning corpse that does some bonus damage to structures. Also applys burning.

It's normal ammunition would most likely be just rocks, it's the abilities that requires corpses.
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Alexander82 »

DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 2:02 am I was wondering, does these sieges need to be skeletal? I've been looking around and i got some nice alternatives.

I think this flinger could be used as shortcut intead of sacrificing the skeletons. Something like what siege tower does and what cannon folder attempt to do, you put some skeleton or zombie inside and next turn this unit could have fly and it gets extra speed... Its not like they would waste corpses to shoot them on walls, they can just use it to be throwed over them... What could possibly go wrong? They are already dead xD They just would put theirself together and kill everything in the path to open the gates from inside.

Btw... Poison in undead vs undead is useless... In general some acid spliters and sprayers would be nice. And in this case, i think the corpse ammunition could just explode in a rain of digestive acid instead.
maybe an acid spitting siege could somehow work better in terms of flavor
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Alexander82 »

DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 1:52 pm Wait... I don't think we have a monster unit for skull thrower... So Why not just make this be the monster version of the skull thrower? Skull thrower throws just flamming skulls, flinger would send the whole burning package :lol:
I thought you liked more the skirmisher option xD
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Alexander82 »

Savra wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 4:32 pm That's basically what Alexander said,
I still think that burning corpses would be the best option in terms of siege
Savra wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 4:32 pm It would have a range and attack increase as makazuwru said, and will have 2 abilities, maybe 3:
No problem, it can have a basic attack and abilities could be locked behind techs
Savra wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 4:32 pm Fling corpse: it's more so something that brings disease upon the enemy, in medieval times one of the tactics was to fling disease ridden corpses over the enemy walls and infect the enemies troops and populace. Later when zombie infections become a thing, this ability could apply that effect instead.
I was thinking to zombie infection as well (but it is something that could really require time, that's why I didn't propose that). About poison I'm not particularly keen about it. As far as I know corpses fling in the middle age was mostly something to reduce morale to enemies, so another option could be to make it "summon" a corpse inside an enemy base that has some sort of demoralizing aura (of course it could be destroyed but that would still require some effort from the defender)
Savra wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 4:32 pm Fling burning corpse: fires a burning corpse that does some bonus damage to structures. Also applys burning.
It could work similarly to spitfire but damage could be dealt based on power or hp of sacrifice
Savra wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 4:32 pm It's normal ammunition would most likely be just rocks, it's the abilities that requires corpses.
yes, I wouldn't support a unit that is useless without sacrifices
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Savra »

I would prefer to leave acid to scaledfolks or zombies.

Anyway, the infection thing would just come in when we have that coding in for the zombies.

The burning thing sounds good to me.

But I would still prefer the unit to be summoned by the necromancer, for flavor reasons. The way I see it, the necromancer could work as a mobile siege workshop. We wouldn't necessarily need upgrades to the corpse flingers range either since it can be summoned.

The 3rd ability I mentioned, was something doomsday suggested. Which is the ability to fling units (undead) a certain distance somewhat like the jump ability but it requires a unit and it just allows you to place that unit somewhere in an open space within this units range.

In general, instead of techs that increase units range, attack, hp, speed, etc. We could just grant this unit techs that give it new abilities. It might be interesting.
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Savra »

Updated stats, not abilities yet.
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by makazuwr32 »

Savra wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 4:32 pm That's basically what Alexander said,

It would have a range and attack increase as makazuwru said, and will have 2 abilities, maybe 3:

Fling corpse: it's more so something that brings disease upon the enemy, in medieval times one of the tactics was to fling disease ridden corpses over the enemy walls and infect the enemies troops and populace. Later when zombie infections become a thing, this ability could apply that effect instead.

Fling burning corpse: fires a burning corpse that does some bonus damage to structures. Also applys burning.

It's normal ammunition would most likely be just rocks, it's the abilities that requires corpses.
good for me. p.armor must be higher, indeed. at least 8 (higher than same of humans).
attack range must be 7, same as human catapult.
i'd say it also must not have power range but higher bonuses at base to buildings.

like idea of both abilities, especially with zombifying disease.
both will deal aoe damage andsecond one must have aoe. second one will have small bonus to buildings (lower than fireballs).
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Dagravian »

I see, well for abilities i think i prefer them to be weapon enchants instead of instant effects, the flinger is already meant to be anti-building on regular attack. There is no much reason to make an ability with the same behavior but that put fire or disease on things. Plus i prefer to spend a turn "changing the ammo type" instead of sacrificing units.
Alexander82 wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 5:01 pm I thought you liked more the skirmisher option xD

I do, i didn't remembered that the skirmisher was meant to the thrower xD...

Anyway, this one fits much better to skull thrower flavor, and i was wondering why don't we make regular skirmishers now? Like archer (regular, longbow, crossbow, poison, fire, etc) all share the same corpse, why don't we reverse that and have multiple throwers for undeads using thrower corpse? Like i was thinking on a regular skirmisher (having the monster skirmisher that could use poisonous javelins), a bone tosser (having a needler monster), an fisherman/arpooner (having that captain Ahab and moby dick as monster), and some others... Anyway stuff for another post.
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Alexander82 »

sacrifice are totally fine, especially for undeads that are meant to have a lot of disposable units that can be used as ammo

the regular attack is what you can always do. The additional options are simply something that could help you from time to time (e.g. giving one or two burning instance can be a good help to destroy a specific building coupled with normal attacks, cause you are not forced to use fire attacks every turn)

about skirmisher I think it is fine to make it as a monster unit, I don't want to add many more corpses and the thrower part is already covered

that unit with such a stats could never be used to make a monster anyway, this is not a reanimatable unit, that can be either produced or constructed, so that wouldn't cover the place of skull thrower.
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Alexander82 »

Also there is something that would prevent it (even a much weaker version of it) to be a reanimatable unit coming from a corpse like the thrower one (that is dropped by a lot of cheap enemies).

Think if you are facing any enemy useing units like axe thrower and you kill them near its base? with a single reanimation spell (that is present on 3 undead units at the moment) you might have a full army of siege units in your enemy base (something that is not possible since siege units have a pretty low mobility and can't be carried by wagons).

I'm completely sure that this unit should be either recruited or constructed like any other siege unit.
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Dagravian »

Alexander82 wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 11:37 pm sacrifice are totally fine, especially for undeads that are meant to have a lot of disposable units that can be used as ammo

the regular attack is what you can always do. The additional options are simply something that could help you from time to time (e.g. giving one or two burning instance can be a good help to destroy a specific building coupled with normal attacks, cause you are not forced to use fire attacks every turn)

about skirmisher I think it is fine to make it as a monster unit, I don't want to add many more corpses and the thrower part is already covered

that unit with such a stats could never be used to make a monster anyway, this is not a reanimatable unit, that can be either produced or constructed, so that wouldn't cover the place of skull thrower.
I didn't say sacrifices were wrong, i said that i simply would prefer to use a "fire/disease/acid/else enchant weapon" abilities instead of instant abilities like "spitfire".

I know, that's why i suggested to add abilities as enchants to basic attack, i would like to avoid spam of "spitfires" since as long as you have sacrifices, theorically you could keep spamming those abilities... And beside that their cheapest units cost 2, they can get corpses for free.

Me too, but what i said is not to make 999 new corpses, was to make one corpse share many skeletons, since many units already share one single corpse (Like archers i mentioned before). Skirmishers and axe throwers own different functions, but share one same corpse. While the skull thrower is an axe thrower alike, why not make a bone skirmisher to fill a role aswell? Like, why they need to wait armored, then golden, then monster and rely on some luck to have a skirmisher? (I'm excluding phantom one as it belongs to a sub)

Statwise no, but we didn't finished this yet right? Visually, for me it is a monster candidate. It is a walker, looks like a salamander (or a crawling lizard) with a flinger attachment on the back... And being a corpse thrower, suits the flavor of the skull thrower like a glove...
Alexander82 wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 11:46 pm Also there is something that would prevent it (even a much weaker version of it) to be a reanimatable unit coming from a corpse like the thrower one (that is dropped by a lot of cheap enemies).

Think if you are facing any enemy useing units like axe thrower and you kill them near its base? with a single reanimation spell (that is present on 3 undead units at the moment) you might have a full army of siege units in your enemy base (something that is not possible since siege units have a pretty low mobility and can't be carried by wagons).

I'm completely sure that this unit should be either recruited or constructed like any other siege unit.
Well even if the chance of spawning these were 100%, you simply can't use them right away, so what's the chance of them surviving there if they are on the middle of the enemy base? Basically none... Like, no one would ignore sieges on the middle of their base, so they would be wiped 100% before you be even able to use them there...

But i actually think that would be interesting to have this as a nerfed version of catapult in favor of more robust siege "machinery" produced by skeletons.

I actually see that, not for this, but for a more robust object, remember the screaming catapults/trebouchets from "total war:warhammer"? Skeletons do them there, they could do that here too... (Not riping off, just as inspiration ofc)
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Alexander82 »

yes, at the moment many units share the same corpses, even with different function. For examples all shooters (archers, crossbowmen, gunslingers) drop archer bodies and throwers drop thrower bodies

Since undeads have already a p.armor that is above average (and with all the new additions) I think they are already pretty fine against archers early game (while after upgrades, when they can finally get the monstruous version they can make more use of the monstruous skirmisher).

about this siege I do not agree that you can end up destroying all of them in one turn (unless they have like 4/5 hp each) so I think we should avoid that scenario and make it a decent unit to build
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Savra »

Just a thought, could we make an upgrade to the abilities of something similar that requires higher sacrifice but gives this unit an aoe attack?

E.g. An ability that costs 3 units, has aoe 1, and does a bit more damage with bonuses?

Might be interesting.
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Savra »

Anyway, aside from that, we good on the 2 abilities?

Fling burning corpse: rng:7, dmg:10, has bonus to structures, burning effect, requires 1 unit.

Launch plagued corpse: rng:7, dmg:8, aoe:1, zombie infection effect, would be added when the zombie infection update comes.

Any suggestions on bonuses? Or on these abilities? They would require research of course.
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by makazuwr32 »

lower damage but give bigger aoe. i think aoe 2 must be for both abilities.
No bonuses though.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Alexander82 »

Savra wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 6:04 pm Just a thought, could we make an upgrade to the abilities of something similar that requires higher sacrifice but gives this unit an aoe attack?

E.g. An ability that costs 3 units, has aoe 1, and does a bit more damage with bonuses?

Might be interesting.
there is a issue in one case. I wanted to make the fire attack deal damage based on sacrifice stat, but that doesn't work well with environmental effects (AoE) so that is something that would be possible only with some implementations by @Stratego (dev)
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Stratego (dev) »

lno we can not transfer sacrtifice values to another (referenced) effect. only can affect acual effect.
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Savra »

Alright then how's this?

Fling plagued corpse: rng:7, requires corpse, dmg:8, aoe:2, applies zombie infection, no bonuses.

Fling burning corpse: rng:7, requires unit, dmg:=units health, applies burning, might limit this to just undead. No aoe. Applies small bonus to structures.

One is meant for groups of enemy's, the other is meant for structures.
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Savra »

Some new images.
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Re: Corpse Flinger

Post by Savra »

Updated bonuses.
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