Caragor and a Caragor Rider - IMPLEMENTED

[Savra]

Alpha caragors.

[General Brave]

The white ones don't seem to go well, especially with armor.

[Savra]

How's this?

[Alexander82]

I'll make my own for the upgrades

[LordOfAles]

WIth this, orcs will have strongest cavalry in game.

[General Brave]

What are the stats for each of these.

[Sunrise Samurai]

WIth this, orcs will have strongest cavalry in game.

Because why not. They've got the best archers, infantry, and giants. The only area they aren't the best is mages.

[General Brave]

They kind of do have the best magic.

[Sunrise Samurai]

Thanks for proving my point. Summon green dragon does make that title belong to orcs as well.

[Savra]

Meh, Green dragons only really useful to me in flanking around a mountain or just crossing mountains in general.
To me Orcs have good support mages undead can convert or curse the dragon, humans have a problem with it, Elves can shoot it out of the sky with the combination of elf druid slowing, dwarfs just need their towers and archers, and kobolds have good dragons and buildings to hold off the green dragons. As for the caragor rider I'd say instead of jumping walls you could either
A)give it the shades ability to pass through walls at the cost of a lot of movement.
B)give it mountain walk 1 instead (with 2 being the final upgrade for him rather then another movement.

In easier terms here:
Uruk Raider (new name!)
Cost:8-7
Hp:44/52/60/68
Atk:18/21/24/27
Spd:4(mtn:1)/5(mtn:1)/6(mtn:1)/6(mtn:2)
Rng:1
Sight:6
Res:20%
Arm:2/3/4/5
P.Arm:3/4/5/6
This is just my opinion though so nothing official.

[LordOfAles]

You do know that Green Dragon spam is probably the most destructive strategy in game, right? So yes, that does make them best in casting. And Troll Shaman's regeneration spell is very discouraging when used on almost dead lv3 olog hais. Ever experienced Green Dragon spam?

[Alexander82]

Is the dragon spam still working? That should be immediately limited.

Also I'm working a lot with general to expand other races.

The idea is the orcs are the best statwise but they should lack other options (for example auras related to formation and discipline since orcs aren't very organized even tought skilled individually).

I'm planning a lot of improvements for humans and elves.

About undeads I want to test how they behave with both phantom guard and golden skeletons

[makazuwr32]

I don't want to see for orcs best cavalry of all races.

As i think best cav should be either for undeads or for humans.

[Savra]

I see the humans having the best cav, if anything you could hold off on the caragor rider until everyone gets better can to compensate, btw the green drakeling to green dragon idea combined with the 5 turn cool down would most likely eliminate any green dragon spam problem you have since it would just take too long to build up enough green dragons to do anything because by then the games probably over.

[General Brave]

I wasn't referring to the dragon summoning, I was referring to the healing and other spells they have.

[Alexander82]

Yeah, I agree with humans having the best cavalry. Undeads already are on the same path but mostly with hybrid units (I think they should be among the strongest casters)

[makazuwr32]

As for undeads:
they must have i think strongest dark magic and offencive magic (curses and other magic against enemy and damaging magic)
And as they are now they have best currently dark magic and offencive magic (their hell of pain by sacrifice is by far the strongest offencive magic but lich itself is extremly easy to kill)

[Savra]

Hmmm, I should start using that spell more often. Wasn't it agreed on that if a good unit that extended its races boundaries just required more turns to get like you said with the elf sentinal?

[makazuwr32]

About that spell: it deals same damage as sacrificed unit had: if you sacrificed olog hai 3 (somehow) with max hp than it will deal 140 damage.
If you sacrificed golem (flesh one) with 30 hp left than it will deal 30 damage. if you sactifice skeleton with 1 hp left than it will deal 1 hp only.

About second part idk what wants alex for now.

[Savra]

Btw I noticed that the amount of cab every one has is as follows (suggested units also added.)
Elf:6
Undead:8-1 some might not be added.
Orc:8-2 some might not be added.
Human:15 or more.
Dwarf:6
Scaledfolk:5
Also, the way off upgrades work right now you'd need to first get the orc upgrades which is 4-6 turns, orc cav upgrade 3-6 turns, and then Uruk upgrades which is 4-6-8-12 turns, the logos require headhunter and giants upgrades in the same manner as well as the average uruks requiring the orc upgrades before they get him upgrades. You skip any of these when you reach final upgrade for uruks then that unit(s) are stuck at whatever level you left them at permenetly. Th did aren't the only orcs tied to these style of upgrades either. Compared to this imperial knights could be upgraded faster then caragor riders and still overpower them since the suggested stats put the caragor rider at lower health,armour, and speed then the imperial knight, with the only thing going for them being mountain walk and maybe higher attack. Where elves are concerned, they have a Elite anti cav unit that is a cab itself. If anyone has the strongest cav it would be elves with that protector who is effected by both dodges and armour upgrades, and can out maneuver every one else's cav. (besides undead.)

[Alexander82]

I'll try to make new stats.

There would basically be no reason to make these units at that cost/stat ratio.

I will need to check some proportions

Also I'd like to ask Daniel if the jump ability is doable right now.

If you have played shadow of mordor you'll see that caragors can climb and jump so we might trade some speed for a similar ability or improve mountainwalking

However putting a unit in has sense only if there is a role for it.

[Savra]

It is an elite cav just like the imperial knight, elf protector, death knight, so on are are elite cav. As of shadow of morders case, they lived in mountainous terrain, and could climb up cliff faces as well. Since you have a squig rider that can jump walls the mountain walk would make this unit more unique as a Elite cav just like how death knights can shoot fireballs.

[Sunrise Samurai]

Where elves are concerned, they have a Elite anti cav unit that is a cab itself. If anyone has the strongest cav it would be elves with that protector who is effected by both dodges and armour upgrades, and can out maneuver every one else's cav. (besides undead.)

That isn't even approved to vote yet. Currently, elf anti cavalry is warrior (so puny he dies in one hit to most basic cavalry) dryad (great against weaker cavalry and for picking off units via poison, but useless against elite cavalry) and sentinel (great against any non elite cavalry, if you don't mind healing him afterwards because he's still infantry, and thus weak to most cavalry. Against elite cavalry the sentinel is dead, because of that weakness coupled with lower speed ensuring that the cavalry can choose when to hit.)

Elves actually have to use dragons to counter imperial and death knights right now, for lack of the elite lancer or reach.

Keep in mind we need to discuss current units. That lancer might or might not have current stats if/when it is added.

[Savra]

Well the caragor riders not going in yet either. And actually I kinda like the way the protectors stats are right now, but idk about lowering the sentinels stats. Also sentinels do have a dodge rate and strengthen bonus to aid in killing elite cav. I still say thow their reach in with their weopon smithing upgrades probably tier 1 or 2.

[makazuwr32]

Uhm. Dodge is nothing currently if enemy has bonus against unit. Even if unit has 1000% dodges (all) but enemy unit has bonus against it than your unit with dodges will 100% be hit by that enemy unit.
And because for elven sentinels that dodge is useless aganst cavalry.

[General Brave]

We should really fix that perhaps.

[Savra]

Hmm, makes sense I guess. Though cav shouldn't have bonuses to spear men in my perspective because archer s seem to have that well played out.

[Alexander82]

Uhm. Dodge is nothing currently if enemy has bonus against unit. Even if unit has 1000% dodges (all) but enemy unit has bonus against it than your unit with dodges will 100% be hit by that enemy unit.
And because for elven sentinels that dodge is useless aganst cavalry.

Yeah

the reason is simple

when dodge was put in the 30% against everything made every unit dodge like crazy so we decided that units with bonus shouldn't miss against them.

The real problem i that we have many big categories that make impossible for some units to dodge against most of their enemies (like the sentinel)

As I suggested I tought we might reduce the dodge value and remove the limitation of disabled dodging

I think it is better a 15% dodge against everyone than a 30% against only a few enemies

[Sunrise Samurai]

Well, assuming the sentinel expansion is voted in I'd rather dodge remain as it is. The problem isn't really dodge in this case do much as the role of spear units in general. They have a mutual bonus vs cavalry, so whoever hits first between the two wins. Cavalry has higher speed, so it normally wins that battle unless outnumbered by the spearmen. Elite units exaggerate the issue by making each unit a significant expense. Really elves and undead have this issue for lack of reach on spears.

[Alexander82]

The lack of reach have 2 reasons

1) for undeads is the fact that skeletons are expendable and aren't meant to live much

2) for elves they are light units and were meant to face melee with dodge counter (that should reach like 70% or 80% I don't remember).

We might consider removing limitations on dodge counter alone and test in game