Ballista is OP?

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TheHunter
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Ballista is OP?

Post by TheHunter » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:07 pm

I've been playing this game for 2 years and I think the ballista is unbalanced, because compared to the catapult he does not require technologies, he has 2/2 turn action. The game would be more balanced if it cost 5 or 6 and increase the cost of the heavy ballista tech. Many players create the siege workshop at the start because of this. I'm right or not?

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godOfKings
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by godOfKings » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:38 pm

A fire archer can one shot ballista without any upgrade.

Its actually burning effect that is op now, it deals 8 dmg instead of prev. 4, ballista gets 4 DMG from fire archer's atk, + 8 from burning and it dies,

Also shielder can one hit kill ballista, build fortress early on and hide a fire archer there, or use a wagon-shielder combo to one hit kill ballista

AND THE MOST USEFUL COUNTER - hide a battering ram in ur town and workers inside it, ballista deals ONLY 1 DAMAGE to battering ram so workers r protected

It is true that ballista might b quite op early on without proper defense, but late game ballista very rapidly loses its value for cost

Then there r cavalry, light cavalry deals 11 DMG so ballista survives with 1 HP only, knight deals 15 DMG so even heavy ballista gets one shot...
Last edited by godOfKings on Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by Stratego (dev) » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:44 pm

why is fire archer 8 burn per turn? was it intentional?

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godOfKings
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by godOfKings » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:48 pm

Stratego I think i told u b4 somewhere, burning effect itself deals 8 DMG whether from fire archer or fortress, only ships still get 4 DMG, but siege and buildings both get 8 DMG, while castle gets over 100 DMG for each stack.

I thought it was a measure u took to counter h.cat spam so I didn't complain
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by Stratego (dev) » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:18 pm

i dont remember the change, will ask coolguy.

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Belfry777
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by Belfry777 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:01 am

Hello!

I personally think the ballista is OP because it dose not require the Ballistics tech and its speed is WAY to fast. There is no reason it should have 3 speed at most 2. The fire archer is Op too in that it does to much damage in attack and as proved by many sources a fire arrow is very week. I think the ballista should require the Ballistics tech and have speed 2 or just one.
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makazuwr32
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:37 am

But normal ballista has speed 1 and heavy ballista only 2.

It never had speed 3.
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Vulkan
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by Vulkan » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:01 am

After upgrades, archers have Greater range than heavy ballistas. Fire archers and Knights can absolutely slaughter ballistas
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godOfKings
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by godOfKings » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:24 am

there is nothing else to say about it, ballista in late game becomes almost useless except for destroying wagons, as enemies will have fortress and castles as well as workers can b protected in tc with battering ram, if a ballista does a suicidal charge at enemy base to kill workers, enemy can destroy both ballista and wagon does player will lost 8 turn worth production against how many workers ballista was able to kill...
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Belfry777
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by Belfry777 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:28 pm

Sorry maka I thought it had 3 speed. However I still think it should require ballistic tech.
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godOfKings
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by godOfKings » Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:49 am

if it requires ballistics tech, people will prefer catapult over it as catapult has higher range, higher damage, completely op wen inside a tower and within range of enemy tc, as well as battering ram slayer...

and there r ways to defend against ballista spam early on so it is not that op

infact, ballista literally cannot do anything to a shield knight for instance
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Belfry777
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by Belfry777 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:50 pm

I understand more now then I did awhile ago when I didn't know how to play aos. The balista I think needs to either be cost 5 or speed 1 because the balista can destroy almost any unit (shield night, and shielder as exceptions)of it's cost as it stands right now. Its speed is also very strange because I thought all artillery had to have speed 1. However as before my thoughts on this subject or mixed and sometimes incorrect (Thanks maka for correction) Thanks for the understanding.
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godOfKings
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by godOfKings » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:32 am

ballista is a risky play bcuz if u make fortress defense and fire archers early on, it becomes useless as offensive unit, and initially speed is 1, u need a 4 turn cost upgrade to increase speed to 2, and even then researching ballistics to unlock catapult might b more useful than upgrading ballista in the long run...
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by Belfry777 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:45 pm

I see your concern but I do not agree. We must consider the wagon because most players use wagons to transport their artillery anyway. A Heavy balista and wagon is a very op combo because it can shoot and run (and the wagon is fast). Also the balista is the same cost as the wagon so players can load their new balista in a wagon on the 4th turn. Meaning that on the 5th turn a player could start using their new weapon. Now wither you use a heavy battering ram or a wagon is your choice but the balista if 5 cost would make the wagon combo harder to make. I do agree GOK that the balista in the mid-to-end game is almost obsolete manly do to the medium and heavy units players make during those times. The fire archer is also an issue mainly against the navy in general.
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Vulkan
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by Vulkan » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:29 pm

Wagons make everything OP. Assasins in wagons can devastate castles, it wouldn't even matter if you have scouts or not. Likewise, cavalry in wagons is the bane of artillery, as they can attack as far as 11 tiles.
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godOfKings
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by godOfKings » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:06 pm

And besides, if u know enemy makes ballista in wagons, u can also make fire Archer/knight in wagon and hide it in fortress waiting for him to launch an atk, or simply send some heavy hitters in Ur wagon to destroy enemy wagon so his ballista won't b able to escape


If u can't counter his ballista wagon spam, then it is Ur fault for only spamming workers and losing them all suddenly from a surprise ballista ambush, (unless the tc placement was imbalanced from the beginning then it is just plain bad luck :lol: )
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by Stratego (dev) » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:06 pm

i also feel that ballista is a little op.
so i suggest a minor change: i have reduced ballista and h.ballista power to 8 and 10 (from 10 and 12)

is it ok?

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makazuwr32
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:40 am

No. It i feel will make ballistas too underused. sigh Again.
They were underused when they required ballistics tech and they will become again if they will get another nerf.
godOfKings wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:38 pm
A fire archer can one shot ballista without any upgrade.

Its actually burning effect that is op now, it deals 8 dmg instead of prev. 4, ballista gets 4 DMG from fire archer's atk, + 8 from burning and it dies,

Also shielder can one hit kill ballista, build fortress early on and hide a fire archer there, or use a wagon-shielder combo to one hit kill ballista

AND THE MOST USEFUL COUNTER - hide a battering ram in ur town and workers inside it, ballista deals ONLY 1 DAMAGE to battering ram so workers r protected

It is true that ballista might b quite op early on without proper defense, but late game ballista very rapidly loses its value for cost

Then there r cavalry, light cavalry deals 11 DMG so ballista survives with 1 HP only, knight deals 15 DMG so even heavy ballista gets one shot...
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by Stratego (dev) » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:46 am

i see everyone makes now ballistas, and they are really hard to counter.

my change is very minor - i think ballistas will be still popular - but maybe little less devastating.
but i am open to suggestions.

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Vulkan
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by Vulkan » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:24 am

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:46 am
i see everyone makes now ballistas, and they are really hard to counter.

my change is very minor - i think ballistas will be still popular - but maybe little less devastating.
but i am open to suggestions.
They are really hard to counter? I highly doubt that. Based on stats alone, 1 shield Knight can win against 4 ballistas. Alone.
Fire archers in a fortress can hold off an army of ballistas.
Heck. An upgraded defender can kill 3 heavy ballistas alone. That's a 2 turn unit killing a 12 turn army.
Rams are basically immune to ballistas.
First think of a strategy to counter it before saying something's OP.
Nerf them if you want, but they don't deserve it.
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by TheHunter » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:01 am

Would it be possible to lower the speed to 1? (I speak of the heavy ballista) In small maps this detail makes the Heavy Ballista is OP :cry:

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makazuwr32
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:32 am

Actually that is only reason i usually use ballistas in first place in late games.
Without additional speed it will become completely useless in late game.
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:37 am

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:46 am
i see everyone makes now ballistas, and they are really hard to counter.

my change is very minor - i think ballistas will be still popular - but maybe little less devastating.
but i am open to suggestions.
As for your suggestion this change lowers their damage output by 20% which is actually quite big.
And also this change will make ballistas even more useless than they are now in late/end game because after armor upgrades they do less damage and with this they would do nearly none damage.
For example to knight with all upgrades for now heavy ballista does (if hits! It can also miss!) only 8x2 damage or 16 total.
You want to change this to 6x2 or 12 damage total. To unit with i think 45 hp after all upgrades.
Another example - archers:
Crossbowman for now still can fear even basic ballista regardless of armor. And heavy ballista is quite good at chopping off crossbow armies. With this change heavy ballista will do to main crossbow target 16 damage and to nearby ones only 12. Meaning that it will loose its main purpose of mass damage dealer.

For now ballistas are quite good choice as counter to archer armies. With your suggestion they will loose this role. Who will make ballista for 4 turns when maxed knight is better while catapult has much higher range, aoe and damage?
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Ayush Tiwari
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by Ayush Tiwari » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:05 am

Say it or not,you know it.Majority of 'em use ballistas.Its overused already
Nerfing it won't make it useless.
Also historically,original ballista can only shoot one guy...
And it stays anti infranty,which it was as always,and there is ofc a difference between good choice for counter and OP choice of counter.Get yourself a 4 turn ballista,and research heavy ballista,and then kill all archers with a shot?Thats a good choice?No way...
So overall I agree that Stratego nerfed it...
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by Stratego (dev) » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:41 am

ok, lets play a ballista counter match and share here if they are really not op - so everyone will see they are not op.
(i have modified back the stats to original)

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makazuwr32
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:31 pm

Probably better with @godOfKings, he is better than me player in aos.
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by godOfKings » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:49 pm

yes i m up for it, i will defend against ballista while stratego will spam lots of ballista early on,

also lets choose the smallest 15x15 great throne map where ballista spam is most effective, shall i create a game? @Stratego (dev)
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by Stratego (dev) » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:00 pm

not me, please play with someone- thanks!

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godOfKings
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by godOfKings » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:02 pm

ok lol, well i did counter @mickmackmike ballista invasion in a recent battle so may b he can give some insights on how to counter ballista early on

anyways let me describe wat happened, he had a wagon and 2 h.ballista, i had a fortress, 2 fire archers and a wagon ( i made wagon with worker spams), i defended my towns by dragging shielders infront and putting workers behind them, simply waited for him to attack first, but i must admit they r great factory destroyers (but that is expected from 2 8 turn cost units with a 4 turn upgrade) so overall both he and i dealt each other more or less same damage (in terms of the cost of units killed)

one drawback with early ballista invasion is opponent can have early worker spams and if u cant utilize ballista attacks to kill as many workers as possible the invader will become the loser in the long run
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Belfry777
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Re: Ballista is OP?

Post by Belfry777 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:14 am

makazuwr32 wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:38 am
No it isn't.
Makazuwr32 you defend the H.Balista because you like it's ability to destroy masses of troops. Upon repeated attempts to tone the H.Ballista down, you have refuted my ideas and gave no real answer to fix the issue. However stratego shares my opinion on the issue and feels that the H.Ballista is a little OP. The H.Ballitsa has power 12, 5 armor peirce and 2 actions making a grand total of 24 damage not including the extra damage it causes to nearby units. So... I think the H.Ballisa needs to keep the power back at 10 ( like the regular Ballista )and increase it's health and armor peirce instead. With these revised stats the ballista will only do 20 damage (and area damage) yet have a bump of 4 HP making out to 19.

HP: 19
Attack: 10
Armor pierce: 6
Rest of the stats...
A thousand may fall at your side,
And ten thousand at your right hand;
But it shall not come near you.
Only with your eyes shall you look,
And see the reward of the wicked.

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