some rebalancing for the orc dragon

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Stratego (dev)
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed May 30, 2018 9:56 pm

i see these dragons are too op.

new idea:
green dragon starts with a "little dragon" meaning it is young and not so strong
it gets a 8 turn vanishingor counting, and on end of vanish/couting it will turn to a mature dragon - like it is now.

what do u think?

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Ayush Tiwari
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Ayush Tiwari » Thu May 31, 2018 2:15 am

:|
Stratego (dev) wrote:i see these dragons are too op.

new idea:
green dragon starts with a "little dragon" meaning it is young and not so strong
it gets a 8 turn vanishingor counting, and on end of vanish/couting it will turn to a mature dragon - like it is now.

what do u think?
Thats a good idea,but I hope it will be strong enough for surviving 8turns
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General Brave
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by General Brave » Thu May 31, 2018 3:10 am

Maybe not Vanishing?
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Ayush Tiwari
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Ayush Tiwari » Thu May 31, 2018 3:43 am

General Brave wrote:Maybe not Vanishing?
It won't vanish,it will just become more strong after 8 turns
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Alexander82
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:44 pm

Ok, i've talked with Daniel and we agreed on some points while i'm explaining some more

-Add a tech as a requirement (i think that a cost from 6 to 8 is fair enough)
-Add a cooldown (probably 5 or 6 but this can be easily changed later)
-Reduce the sacrifice cost to 1 (the reason is simple. With the previous changes it wouldn't be convenient to keep a troll shaman at base to stay still 5 turns out of 6. You must bring it to the battlefield where it can heal a big unit or summon a dragon from a weaker dying unit. Having 3 units around in the field it wouldn't be viable since you need to keep your healers behind enough to survive)
-make the spell onel with a certain range like healing, so you can basically click the spell, target any friendly unit in the normal caster's range and make it a dragon.

Dragons are a summon that you need to use once in a while since the troll is the orcs main healer and you need to bring it on the field to fill this role.
You can use it to summon a dragon but it is something you can just do once in a while.

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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Stratego (dev) » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:56 am

we lastly talked these with Alexander (as i remember)
- we will keep at least 2 units of sacrifice
- and we will give some cooldown (not sure how many)
- and we will make a tech dependancy

currently i quickly put in only the cooldown (6) - to avoid the op. greendragon spamming strategies. (will be in next update)
if someone could help with the tech json than i can put in the rest too.

also could love some suggestions on exact values of cooldown and new tech cost.

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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:31 am

For tech 5 turns cost, reseachable at shaman's hut only will be fine.
For cooldown i agree with 5-6 turns suggestion from Alexander. as for start better be 6 turns.
Specifically for not so genious persons
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Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:24 am
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by LordOfAles » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:01 am

Then this would encourage people to train more troll shamans if they are winning by using this strategy.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:59 am

each troll shaman costs 4 turns.
Also because you will need to research tech for 5 turns in shaman hut this
1. eats away your building limit.
2. you need to research this tech instead of for example researching orc upgrade1
3. most of time you don't need shaman hut because both shamans can be produced in tc.
4. ofc this still allows usage of dragon spam technique but this way your shaman will stay useless on your base for 5-6 turns and then summon dragon, also remember that while you are wasting your time on producing dragons this way (via trolls and some cheap units) someone can make easy counter to them:
orcs have their giants, which are much better than dragons;
undeads can make some mummies;
humans have mage and drake knight combo;
elves have their druids and archers;
dwarves have riflemen, clerics and alchemists.
Specifically for not so genious persons
makazuwr32 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:24 am
IT IS ALWAYS EASIER TO CORRECT EXISTING THINGS THAN TO MAKE SOMETHING NEW FROM SCRAP. © by Makazuwr32™.

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Ayush Tiwari
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Ayush Tiwari » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:29 am

makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:59 am
each troll shaman costs 4 turns.
Also because you will need to research tech for 5 turns in shaman hut this
1. eats away your building limit.
2. you need to research this tech instead of for example researching orc upgrade1
3. most of time you don't need shaman hut because both shamans can be produced in tc.
4. ofc this still allows usage of dragon spam technique but this way your shaman will stay useless on your base for 5-6 turns and then summon dragon, also remember that while you are wasting your time on producing dragons this way (via trolls and some cheap units) someone can make easy counter to them:
orcs have their giants, which are much better than dragons;
undeads can make some mummies;
humans have mage and drake knight combo;
elves have their druids and archers;
dwarves have riflemen, clerics and alchemists.
Looks like Uruks will be the hope of green dragon spammers now :lol:
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by LordOfAles » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:23 pm

On large maps players can get a dragon spam center up and running. But i doubt this will be a case often, so i think this is as balanced as it could be.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Skelegonsans » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:47 pm

Sounds just about right. The main objective of this should not be REMOVE the dragon spam tatic, only to make it a lot more difficult so it's not overpowered. With these ideas the tatic will still be possible but much harder to do and will have its backsides like every other tatic while still being a viable option to deal with certain units / tatics, which is why I like this. Good job.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Savra » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:27 am

Here's a baby dragon!
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Savra » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:38 pm

If we are still experiencing problems with the green dragon, we could just make it's programming be based off of the hostile neutrals one were it wanders 1 space at a time aimlessly until it sees an enemy then it goes after it. But keep it on players team, this way if players try and spam it in their base they will run out of room because they will just fly around it, forcing them to put it on front lines for better use.

This would be one of a few solutions others being:

1) Make it a tech.

2) baby green dragon is summoned and you have to wait 8 turns for it to grow, making it useless for 8 turns.

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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by General Brave » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:39 am

They are not what they used to be, does anyone actually try to spam them now instead of me?
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Savra » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:12 am

Well, the 5 turn cool set it back some, but if you get enough shamans then that's not a problem.

But you only can summon them in certain places.

Let me guess, the reason you do it is because of enemy archers, to speed up a match, or just for fun?

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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by General Brave » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:28 am

Because the only reason I do it, it's because I can and always had.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Savra » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:53 am

:lol:
The other 2 reasons were reasons why I did it but most of which was by accident.
(Lost my ettin, orc warrior, and orc shaman because the troll figured they'd make for a tasty snack for his dragon. :lol: )

The 3rd reason I use them is to get over most terrain, had a wall of mountains between me and a swarm of elf archers and I just said screw it and started sending dragons their way. Troll headhunters didn't stand a chance until I did that.

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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Midonik » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:21 am

You can deal with those dragons now, with all races.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Savra » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:55 pm

Yes, but they still work as a means to clear out 5 out a swarm of enemies hindering your troops, eve n if they are now just a one shot unit.

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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Stratego (dev) » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:16 pm

what about summoning dragons being a one time spell per caster?

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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Savra » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:26 pm

Well, the problem seems fixed for now since everyone has the ability to counter it now so this topic could be set as answered.

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