Dev version 1.153 discussions

[b2198]

Some things I've noticed that at a first look seem a bit unbalanced for me:

• 11 range trebuchets in the late game: this would make trebuchets have a range bigger than even high castle's trebuchet shot, making them fire at them with no possible retaliation.
• 6 speed wagons in the mid game: wagons are imo borderline too strong, being used a lot by some of the best players, but underused, since from what I've seen, the vast majority of the players don't use them at all. This change would increase its power by a lot for those who use it, and imo wouldn't be enough incentive for most players to start using them, since from my own experience when starting out in the game, it didn't seem very useful to spend 4 turns in something that "only works for movement" (I know, it also works for artificially increasing carry capacity of buildings, some load+move+unload in a single turn shenanigans, also provides a little more protection to a single unit inside, and conceals information about your attack, but back then, that was how I used to think about them), and that might be part of the reason they are underused right now.
• 9 range ballistas in the mid-to-late game with 17 ranged damage and 0 miss chance is a bit too much for their cost, no? Maybe reduce the range to 6/7 instead of 7/8 and the damage to something like 13/15 instead of 14/17 (and increase buffs against siege and ships a bit to compensate)? They are like stronger and cheaper pavaise crossbow deployed that can move (but are less durable), even considering blacksmith upgrades and that they don't have a bonus against heavy cavalry.

Alternative Idea for wagons: instead of just buffing them directly, you could instead decrease their cost to 3 (6 for ambidextria builders), decrease their hp considerably, speed to 4 (back to 5 with research), disallow mounted units from going inside, and maybe reduce carry capacity to 2?

[Endru1241]

Some things I've noticed that at a first look seem a bit unbalanced for me:

• 11 range trebuchets in the late game: this would make trebuchets have a range bigger than even high castle's trebuchet shot, making them fire at them with no possible retaliation.

I struggled for a lot of time thinking about that and finally came to solution, that there has to exist something to outrange High castle and all other towers. To make it more needed to leave safety of defensive line.
There will be added Bombard with similar capability, but with some twists to make them valid alternative.

What makes it not very balanced is my mistake.
I forgot to make another thought change - removing packing transformation from Stand Trebuchet and deploy in Stand Mode from packed.
Discussion in siege encampment topic made me think it might be just the solution for trebuchet.

• 6 speed wagons in the mid game: wagons are imo borderline too strong, being used a lot by some of the best players, but underused, since from what I've seen, the vast majority of the players don't use them at all. This change would increase its power by a lot for those who use it, and imo wouldn't be enough incentive for most players to start using them, since from my own experience when starting out in the game, it didn't seem very useful to spend 4 turns in something that "only works for movement" (I know, it also works for artificially increasing carry capacity of buildings, some load+move+unload in a single turn shenanigans, also provides a little more protection to a single unit inside, and conceals information about your attack, but back then, that was how I used to think about them), and that might be part of the reason they are underused right now.

Alternative Idea for wagons: instead of just buffing them directly, you could instead decrease their cost to 3 (6 for ambidextria builders), decrease their hp considerably, speed to 4 (back to 5 with research), disallow mounted units from going inside, and maybe reduce carry capacity to 2?

I already planned removing mounted carrying from wagons some time ago.
It's gonna be made along with addition of Fresh Mounts ability (or aura working inside or both) - something given to upg stables and new misc building - Posthouse (which would be the only usage of it, maybe along with some healing inside).
I attached image for it.
This effect would increase movement of mounted units (or rename to Fresh Horses and only for horse mounted units).
I am thinking of +3 speed for single movement (Geass: Move style).

Carry capacity will be decreased to 2 along with upgrade - To Reinforced Wagon, which will bring it back to 3 (along with increase in hp).

As for an argument of underused yet OP - we cannot avoid that by nerfing capabilities, that don't affect main usage that's too good:
- the only way to decrease carry increase would be to decrease carry to 1
- the only way to remove possibility to abuse switching unit's between wagons/different carriers would be to make code change to use movement then and require it to switch in/out
Neither of the two would be much affected by possibility to reach speed of 6.
And imho - real intended usage of wagon is to be fast way for infantry to move + exactly ambush/strike possibility.
Protection can also be quite important usage for some very fragile and slow misc units.

• 9 range ballistas in the mid-to-late game with 17 ranged damage and 0 miss chance is a bit too much for their cost, no? Maybe reduce the range to 6/7 instead of 7/8 and the damage to something like 13/15 instead of 14/17 (and increase buffs against siege and ships a bit to compensate)? They are like stronger and cheaper pavaise crossbow deployed that can move (but are less durable), even considering blacksmith upgrades and that they don't have a bonus against heavy cavalry.

Cannot be protected by anything though.
Pavaise crossbow have advantages of being infantry - they can go into wagons, rams, and most importantly - towers and siege tower and still shoot from the last two.
New stats of ballista are supposed to make it similarly useful against flesh units, like area effect usage (12 x2 attacks on unfortunate target getting directly hit and 8x2 for adjacent, including original target, which on medium endgame infantry is 9x2 and 5x2 for adjacent), but concentrated on single target.
And I also wanted to make it closer to real historical arrow shooting ballista - precise, powerful attacks, which are great as field support, that can even help against very heavily armored targets, which comes with disadvantage of being strongly inconvenient to use.

If it's too much, then I'd rather increase balista cost to 5 (and worker constructing it to 15 turns).
Attack decrease is also possible, but I am not sure if it's really obligatory.

[b2198]

I struggled for a lot of time thinking about that and finally came to solution, that there has to exist something to outrange High castle and all other towers. To make it more needed to leave safety of defensive line.

Hm, ok, fair enough, given that a player would need 6 + 5 + 5 = 16 turns to get ballistics -> field ballistics -> advanced ballistics, have a mega produce a trebuchet in 6 more turns and upgrade them in 5 more, if anyone would ever rush all that they would have been swarmed by the enemy already due to the amount of turns they would lose with money couriers, not to mention building a mega.

There will be added Bombard with similar capability, but with some twists to make them valid alternative.

One more nice addition to the list

What makes it not very balanced is my mistake.
I forgot to make another thought change - removing packing transformation from Stand Trebuchet and deploy in Stand Mode from packed.
Discussion in siege encampment topic made me think it might be just the solution for trebuchet.

Ooh, so it will take 2 turns to set up a stand trebuchet now? That'll be tricky to use, and alongside the new vision researches will surely give defenders some more warning time before they have to react, but with the range increase, will also give attackers a bigger reward if the defender doesn't react in time.

I already planned removing mounted carrying from wagons some time ago.
It's gonna be made along with addition of Fresh Mounts ability (or aura working inside or both) - something given to upg stables and new misc building - Posthouse (which would be the only usage of it, maybe along with some healing inside).
I attached image for it.
This effect would increase movement of mounted units (or rename to Fresh Horses and only for horse mounted units).
I am thinking of +3 speed for single movement (Geass: Move style).

Oh, nice, and since it would only last for 1 turn, it would be better used as a counterattack manouver or alongside some offensive building strat. Though I feel 9 speed would still be a little too much for winged hussars, giving them an effective 11 attack range without bards, and 13 with them, maybe it could give different speed amounts based on cavalry type? Like +2 to medium cavalry and heavy cavalry, and +3 to light cavalry?

Carry capacity will be decreased to 2 along with upgrade - To Reinforced Wagon, which will bring it back to 3 (along with increase in hp).

Nice one too.

As for an argument of underused yet OP - we cannot avoid that by nerfing capabilities, that don't affect main usage that's too good:
- the only way to decrease carry increase would be to decrease carry to 1
- the only way to remove possibility to abuse switching unit's between wagons/different carriers would be to make code change to use movement then and require it to switch in/out
Neither of the two would be much affected by possibility to reach speed of 6.

I think the "too good" part of it is primarily the fact that you can make "mounted missiles" with them, buffing cavalry before putting them in a wagon, and then launching the wagon with cavalry and doing a devastating attack in a single turn. The unit switching is a good usage for them, but not op imo, it only becomes kinda op if you have a line of buildings with wagons inside them that could make a unit move stupidly large distances in a single turn, but that requires a lot of setup on its own, so it's not very practical to do most of the time. Since it's already planned to not allow mounted units inside wagons, I think the "op usage" will be nerfed enough.

And imho - real intended usage of wagon is to be fast way for infantry to move + exactly ambush/strike possibility.
Protection can also be quite important usage for some very fragile and slow misc units.

Yeah, definitely.

Cannot be protected by anything though.
Pavaise crossbow have advantages of being infantry - they can go into wagons, rams, and most importantly - towers and siege tower and still shoot from the last two.

That's true.

New stats of ballista are supposed to make it similarly useful against flesh units, like area effect usage (12 x2 attacks on unfortunate target getting directly hit and 8x2 for adjacent, including original target, which on medium endgame infantry is 9x2 and 5x2 for adjacent), but concentrated on single target.
And I also wanted to make it closer to real historical arrow shooting ballista - precise, powerful attacks, which are great as field support, that can even help against very heavily armored targets, which comes with disadvantage of being strongly inconvenient to use.

If it's too much, then I'd rather increase balista cost to 5 (and worker constructing it to 15 turns).

Now this would be a possible solution, since it would make them way less spammable. For a cost 4 (1+12 with ambidextria builder) unit they would be too strong imo, but with an increased cost it should work.

Attack decrease is also possible, but I am not sure if it's really obligatory.

If cost is increased, I'm not sure a decrease to attack would be needed anymore.


Also something that @phoenixffyrnig reminded me of earlier today was that hwachas wouldn't be really affected by the gunpowder changes, still being available right after gunpowder is researched and getting their ability back (so back to having reliable shots), they might go back to becoming almost as strong as they were before 1.149, where hwacha spam with workers was very common. Sure, they will now require field ballistics to have their 7 range, but that's still way faster than what other gunpowder units will now require to get all their power. Maybe they should require some other research alongside gunpowder to be produced, or something along those lines?

[Endru1241]

I already planned removing mounted carrying from wagons some time ago.
It's gonna be made along with addition of Fresh Mounts ability (or aura working inside or both) - something given to upg stables and new misc building - Posthouse (which would be the only usage of it, maybe along with some healing inside).
I attached image for it.
This effect would increase movement of mounted units (or rename to Fresh Horses and only for horse mounted units).
I am thinking of +3 speed for single movement (Geass: Move style).

Oh, nice, and since it would only last for 1 turn, it would be better used as a counterattack manouver or alongside some offensive building strat. Though I feel 9 speed would still be a little too much for winged hussars, giving them an effective 11 attack range without bards, and 13 with them, maybe it could give different speed amounts based on cavalry type? Like +2 to medium cavalry and heavy cavalry, and +3 to light cavalry?

The idea is to have movement boost on owned terrain (player can build cheap, but very fragile posthouses to create a line of boosts) + have better options for sudden counters on owned terrain (like e.g. against siege).
It's aimed to somehow make more convenient usage of cavalry on very big maps and for quick deployment.

Unfortunately there is no way to have one effect give different amount depending on categories (bonuses only work for hp ), so it would have to be 2 different effects.
I don't think there is enough reason for that.

Also something that @phoenixffyrnig reminded me of earlier today was that hwachas wouldn't be really affected by the gunpowder changes, still being available right after gunpowder is researched and getting their ability back (so back to having reliable shots), they might go back to becoming almost as strong as they were before 1.149, where hwacha spam with workers was very common. Sure, they will now require field ballistics to have their 7 range, but that's still way faster than what other gunpowder units will now require to get all their power. Maybe they should require some other research alongside gunpowder to be produced, or something along those lines?

I completely forgot about hwachas (I only changed their attack to be effect last minute).
Maybe make Improved Rockets tech, that requires Advanced Ballistics, which will add +1 ability power to Hwacha and along with that - decrease Hwacha ability power 3->2.
So hwacha would literally have initial damage cut by 33%.

[b2198]

The idea is to have movement boost on owned terrain (player can build cheap, but very fragile posthouses to create a line of boosts) + have better options for sudden counters on owned terrain (like e.g. against siege).
It's aimed to somehow make more convenient usage of cavalry on very big maps and for quick deployment.

Unfortunately there is no way to have one effect give different amount depending on categories (bonuses only work for hp ), so it would have to be 2 different effects.
I don't think there is enough reason for that.

Maybe reduce to +2 speed then? Cavalry units are already very fast on their own, with buffs from this and bards these buildings could be placed outside the enemy firing range (so doesn't really matter if it's fragile) to boost attacking cavalry. Or maybe even turn this into a skill of cavalry units themselves similar to elephant run, that would give +3 speed but cost 1 action? Or maybe even multiply speed by 2 and remove all actions (is there a way to remove all actions that prevents buffs like hero song giving them more immediately afterwards?), if that's to be used for movement across large distances on the map?

I completely forgot about hwachas (I only changed their attack to be effect last minute).
Maybe make Improved Rockets tech, that requires Advanced Ballistics, which will add +1 ability power to Hwacha and along with that - decrease Hwacha ability power 3->2.
So hwacha would literally have initial damage cut by 33%.

Oh, that would be a good option, with the ability power reduced like that, they would have their damage reduced from 7x3 to 7x2 (currently 7x4?) to target tile, (5.4 rounded down)5x3 to 5x2 (currently 5x3?) to adjacent tiles, and (4.32 rounded down)4x3 to 4x2 (currently 4x3?) to tiles at 2 range from target until that research is made? Maybe even going a step further and reducing their damage to 6/4/3 x 2 before this research is made, so that ranged damage would be needed beforehand for it to even be a thing?

Also does it affect multi-tile buildings correctly now with the new spec? I know, that's only relevant against monastery in terms of damage, and even then just by a little bit, increasing from up to 9 damage to up to 14 (right?), but that would work way better for when the mega is right next to a barely-outside-range target that is not close to the bottom left tile of said building.


Also I just checked petardiers and... aren't they waay too strong? I mean, even against a high castle, that has 5 armor, their damage with Explode Self is 1680? So 2 petardiers can 100% -> 0 a fully upgraded high castle in a single turn when launched from a wagon... that now has increased speed? That seems like the return of siege assassins, but now costing 3 or 6 turns, based on your target...
Imho that needs a heavy nerf, at the very least a 60% decrease in damage with either an increase to 4 turns cost or requirement of gunpowder.

Same for Set Petard, I get that if they can get somewhat safely close to a mega (like inside a siege tower) they should deal way more damage than infantry, because that's their specialization, but still, ~644.8 damage for every petard there every turn is also way too much. By comparison, a fully upgraded hatamoto with sword mastery lv 2, both action buffs from bard and herbalist and battle song will deal 460 damage, and to be buffed they need to be outside protection at some point, so I really think their damage should be at least lower than 500 total, possibly even lower than 450, since buff stacking is probably gonna get nerfed at some point, and hatamotos with only the onmyoji buff and high morale aura would deal 214 damage.

Edit: 645.28 damage, not ~644.8, I incorrectly typed 302.2 instead of 302.4 in my calculations

[b2198]

I mean:





(note: here the high castle hp wasn't yet updated when I took the screenshot, here's the hp it actually had )

[b2198]

Uh.. it seems my calculations were wrong, Explode Self actually deals... 1807 damage? o.O


I thought the damage would go
(450-5) = 445 on target tile
(450*0.7/1 - 5) = 310 on the 3 adjacent tiles
(450*0.7/2 - 5) = 152.5 on the 2 other tiles
445 + 310*3 + 152.5*2 = 1680 damage?


Edit: some other calculations based on this one
note: by damage, I mean base damage + bonus damage

-the high castle took 1807 damage:
damage - armor + (damage*70% - armor)*3 + (damage/2 - armor)*2 would result in 1815 damage, off by 8 = 2*4, hit 2 tiles at 2 range


-that monastery took 220 damage
(damage/2 - armor) would result in 224 damage, off by 4, hit 1 tile at 2 range

I'm not sure where that 4 is coming from though, but I think the explosion might be dealing the wrong amount of damage for tiles at 2 or higher range from the target, ignoring the 70% and only dividing by the distance. Doing some more tests on that right now.

Edit 2:
After that I tried hitting the monastery in that tile there


And the castle took 751 damage


(damage*70% - armor) + (damage/2 - armor)*2 would result in 759 damage, off by 8 = 2*4, hit 2 tiles at 2 range... o.O

Edit 3:
Now I tried hitting the monastery there (to hit 1 tile of the high castle at 1 range and 3 tiles at 2 range)


The high castle took 958 damage


(damage*70% - armor) + (damage/2 - armor)*3 would result in 970 damage... off by 12... = 3*4... hit 3 tiles at 2 range o.O

@Stratego (dev) I think the damage on ENV_AFFECT_EACH_TILE might be ignoring the percentage damage drop from range at range 2 (and possibly higher?), and might be instead only dividing by the distance in that case (or might be something else too, that is just my guess). Also there's 4 extra damage per tile at 2 range coming from somewhere, and I have no clue about where.

Edit 4:
Seems to really not affect things at 0 or 1 range from target since a Set Petard at the bottom center of the high castle dealt 646 damage


damage - armor + (damage*40% - armor)*3 would result in 645.28 damage, which I'm guessing showed as 646 by rounding down the hp (that would also explain some times where I've seen things not be destroyed at "0" hp)

[Endru1241]

The idea is to have movement boost on owned terrain (player can build cheap, but very fragile posthouses to create a line of boosts) + have better options for sudden counters on owned terrain (like e.g. against siege).
It's aimed to somehow make more convenient usage of cavalry on very big maps and for quick deployment.

Unfortunately there is no way to have one effect give different amount depending on categories (bonuses only work for hp ), so it would have to be 2 different effects.
I don't think there is enough reason for that.

Maybe reduce to +2 speed then? Cavalry units are already very fast on their own, with buffs from this and bards these buildings could be placed outside the enemy firing range (so doesn't really matter if it's fragile) to boost attacking cavalry. Or maybe even turn this into a skill of cavalry units themselves similar to elephant run, that would give +3 speed but cost 1 action? Or maybe even multiply speed by 2 and remove all actions (is there a way to remove all actions that prevents buffs like hero song giving them more immediately afterwards?), if that's to be used for movement across large distances on the map?

There is no way to multiply speed.

Making boost as some kind of self ability defeats the purpose of being boost on owned terrain only.
That is not the point.

Removing actions would disallow it to be used as quick deployment.

Although it could be only aura affecting units inside, so then nothing can buff it from starting position.
That could also nicely fit as possible stables upgrade - you use some turns for upgrade, but units trained from this building have initial boost in movement for first move.

I completely forgot about hwachas (I only changed their attack to be effect last minute).
Maybe make Improved Rockets tech, that requires Advanced Ballistics, which will add +1 ability power to Hwacha and along with that - decrease Hwacha ability power 3->2.
So hwacha would literally have initial damage cut by 33%.

Oh, that would be a good option, with the ability power reduced like that, they would have their damage reduced from 7x3 to 7x2 (currently 7x4?) to target tile, (5.4 rounded down)5x3 to 5x2 (currently 5x3?) to adjacent tiles, and (4.32 rounded down)4x3 to 4x2 (currently 4x3?) to tiles at 2 range from target until that research is made? Maybe even going a step further and reducing their damage to 6/4/3 x 2 before this research is made, so that ranged damage would be needed beforehand for it to even be a thing?

I don't think going to lower damage is in any way needed.
Decreasing applied attacks by 1 is already huge nerf.
Remember that each is decreased by p.armors, so initial 7*2 would only deal 12 damage to normal medium infantry.

Also does it affect multi-tile buildings correctly now with the new spec? I know, that's only relevant against monastery in terms of damage, and even then just by a little bit, increasing from up to 9 damage to up to 14 (right?), but that would work way better for when the mega is right next to a barely-outside-range target that is not close to the bottom left tile of said building.

Not entirely.
It affects each tile, but it's centered on tile closest to caster, so for melee range abilities , like petard it's perfect, but hwacha won't be able to target farther tiles.
To make it properly use selected tile too many things would need to be changed in the code, so it's left alone for now as half-measure.

Also I just checked petardiers and... aren't they waay too strong? I mean, even against a high castle, that has 5 armor, their damage with Explode Self is 1680? So 2 petardiers can 100% -> 0 a fully upgraded high castle in a single turn when launched from a wagon... that now has increased speed? That seems like the return of siege assassins, but now costing 3 or 6 turns, based on your target...
Imho that needs a heavy nerf, at the very least a 60% decrease in damage with either an increase to 4 turns cost or requirement of gunpowder.

Same for Set Petard, I get that if they can get somewhat safely close to a mega (like inside a siege tower) they should deal way more damage than infantry, because that's their specialization, but still, ~644.8 damage for every petard there every turn is also way too much. By comparison, a fully upgraded hatamoto with sword mastery lv 2, both action buffs from bard and herbalist and battle song will deal 460 damage, and to be buffed they need to be outside protection at some point, so I really think their damage should be at least lower than 500 total, possibly even lower than 450, since buff stacking is probably gonna get nerfed at some point, and hatamotos with only the onmyoji buff and high morale aura would deal 214 damage.

Edit: 645.28 damage, not ~644.8, I incorrectly typed 302.2 instead of 302.4 in my calculations

I think the damage on ENV_AFFECT_EACH_TILE might be ignoring the percentage damage drop from range at range 2 (and possibly higher?), and might be instead only dividing by the distance in that case (or might be something else too, that is just my guess). Also there's 4 extra damage per tile at 2 range coming from somewhere, and I have no clue about where.

Damage at range is decreased by stated percentage each tile.
So for Self Explode it's 0.7*0.7=0.49 on 2nd tile.

Although seeing damage I must have forgot to apply some value changes - I meant for self explode to deal a little over 800 damage, while something like <500 for petard vs megas and it was calculated.
And still having in mind a nerf after some time (one or two versions) by adding upgrade to petardier and nerfing it's damage before it and also making both petardier and demolition ship affected by some sort of tech, requiring gunpowder to boost damage.

[Endru1241]

I checked.
I didn't change damage bonuses (they are currently at level, that was supposed to be temporary increase before abilities would affect all tiles).

Optimal point damage vs megas should be 477 for set petard and 811 for sacrifice explosion - armor reduction.
Currently it's 666 and 1837, which has to be fixed before publishing.

Also precisely what I mean by future changes:
tech giving +8 ability power, petardier having 15/20 ability power (currently has 18).
Set petard damage is ability power*0.8, so it would then be: 12/16/22.4 => damage vs megas in optimal point 396/528/741
For self explosion it would be 675/898/1258.

[phoenixffyrnig]

Exciting looking update, can't wait. Unfortunately I will have to, my Dev version phone has bitten the dust, so I wait for publication with the other peasants

Sorry to sound like a stuck record, but is it still the same requirements for Gunpowder, ie Ballistics only ? Really, spamming Hwacha and cannon tower is the main purpose of a gunpowder rush, and even weaker versions of those units would still allow that approach to flourish at the expense of so much more, especially if they can be started now and upgraded at leisure.

Both these units effectively close down a type of play that we otherwise seem to be expanding - hwacha basically spell the end of any large scale use of infantry, and cannon towers shut down pre treb/cannon siege play. If it its quicker to max these two out than it is to make use of these new siege changes then are they at risk of being bypassed too as we race towards maxed out trebs and cannon?

[godOfKings]

Well, by the time u make one hwacha u also make one siege tower, but i think right now movement of cannon and hwacha will cost 1 action so they cannot immediately attack

[phoenixffyrnig]

Ah cool, that'll hold them back.

[b2198]

I don't think going to lower damage is in any way needed.
Decreasing applied attacks by 1 is already huge nerf.
Remember that each is decreased by p.armors, so initial 7*2 would only deal 12 damage to normal medium infantry.

Yeah. but that is on area, so its 12 damage to the target, 8 damage to any other of these that are adjacent and 6 damage to 2 range ones, this being available as early as gunpowder (and now back to having no miss chance) would decrease even more the usefulness of medium infantry in the open field at that point of the game (which is quite early, since you only need 18 turns for a siege workshop produced hwacha without money couriers, or lower with builders.

Not entirely.
It affects each tile, but it's centered on tile closest to caster, so for melee range abilities , like petard it's perfect, but hwacha won't be able to target farther tiles.
To make it properly use selected tile too many things would need to be changed in the code, so it's left alone for now as half-measure.

I see. That makes sense if the ability is receiving the unit targeted instead of tile targeted, and I imagine a lot of things would need to be adapted for that to change and it would need to be very carefully done to not break a lot of abilities in all variants.

Damage at range is decreased by stated percentage each tile.
So for Self Explode it's 0.7*0.7=0.49 on 2nd tile.

That kinda makes sense, but then the info is wrong

Also that still leaves a bit of weirdness in the calculations:

• the 1807 damage case: (450 - 5) + (450*0.7 - 5)*3 + (450*0.7*0.7 - 5)*2 = 1806, 1 less than real damage
• the 220 damage case: (450*0.7*0.7 - 1) = 219.5, checks up, might've been rounded when shown
• the 751 damage case: (450*0.7 - 2) + (450*0.7*0.7 - 2)*2 = 750, 1 less than real damage
• the 958 damage case: (450*0.7 - 5) + (450*0.7*0.7 - 5)*3 = 956.5, 1.5 less than real damage

So in this case there still seems to be a 0.5 * tiles at 2 range damage missing (which is still rounded correctly at 1 tile in that range, but doesn't add up for 2 or 3 tiles) (and possibly for higher ranges too, though as far as I remember there's no 3 range area damage ability to check that)

Although seeing damage I must have forgot to apply some value changes - I meant for self explode to deal a little over 800 damage, while something like <500 for petard vs megas and it was calculated.
And still having in mind a nerf after some time (one or two versions) by adding upgrade to petardier and nerfing it's damage before it and also making both petardier and demolition ship affected by some sort of tech, requiring gunpowder to boost damage.

I checked.
I didn't change damage bonuses (they are currently at level, that was supposed to be temporary increase before abilities would affect all tiles).

Optimal point damage vs megas should be 477 for set petard and 811 for sacrifice explosion - armor reduction.
Currently it's 666 and 1837, which has to be fixed before publishing.

Also precisely what I mean by future changes:
tech giving +8 ability power, petardier having 15/20 ability power (currently has 18).
Set petard damage is ability power*0.8, so it would then be: 12/16/22.4 => damage vs megas in optimal point 396/528/741
For self explosion it would be 675/898/1258.

741 and 1258 would still be too much, even for late game imo, 1258 on self explode would mean that a single wagon with them can fully destroy a fully upgraded high castle, while set petard for 3 of them in an upgraded siege tower would have them dealing 2223 damage per turn to it, just a little less than 4 heavy trebuchet stand shots with 3 attacks, with a way lower total cost (9 vs 24), and even though their attack is not nearly as safe as a trebuchet from 11 range, they can always end the attack with an Explode Self if in danger, and that results in too much efficiency for a 3 turns unit imo.

Maybe something like ~350-400/~420-470/~500-550 for Set Petard and ~500-600/~600-700/~750-850 for Explode Self would be better?

[b2198]

Well, by the time u make one hwacha u also make one siege tower, but i think right now movement of cannon and hwacha will cost 1 action so they cannot immediately attack

Right now in dev version hwacha movement doesn't cost action, but that could also be another solution I think.

[Endru1241]

Exciting looking update, can't wait. Unfortunately I will have to, my Dev version phone has bitten the dust, so I wait for publication with the other peasants

If you have pc you can install dev version on Bluestacks android emulator.
Even the same account can be loaded to not worry about upgrades (but I advice against trying to save from there - I had some problems).

Sorry to sound like a stuck record, but is it still the same requirements for Gunpowder, ie Ballistics only ? Really, spamming Hwacha and cannon tower is the main purpose of a gunpowder rush, and even weaker versions of those units would still allow that approach to flourish at the expense of so much more, especially if they can be started now and upgraded at leisure.

Both these units effectively close down a type of play that we otherwise seem to be expanding - hwacha basically spell the end of any large scale use of infantry, and cannon towers shut down pre treb/cannon siege play. If it its quicker to max these two out than it is to make use of these new siege changes then are they at risk of being bypassed too as we race towards maxed out trebs and cannon?

Main point here is that initial gunpowder siege unit won't be that good anymore.
And the amount of techs needed to make them go back close to their old stats is much higher, than in case of other siege.

Let's take catapult, ballista, cannon and hwacha (some changes not yet in dev - I hope to manage to add changes before publishing)
- ballista can be trained/build by worker since the very start. But has only 1 tile, accurate attack of 14 damage at max range 7 for cost 5. Need 4 turn upgrade tech for +1 range and higher power from siege workshop. Need 6 turn Ballistics to have area attack and 2 actions (so possibility to move and attack once). Another 5 turn Field Artillery Ballistics from Advancements Center is needed for +1 range. Alternatively need another 4 turn Siege Mode tech to have anti-building capability to deal with fortifications which can be boosted by 6 turn Advanced Ballistics and 7 turn Area Attack.
With additional 17 turn research to be weaker catapult - 8 range, 10 power, 2 area range.
-catapult can be trained/build after 6 turn Ballistics. Has low accuracy +1 area, 16 powered attack at max range 7 for 8 turn cost. Needs 8 turn tech for increased range and attack from siege workshop. Needs 7 turn Area Attack for area damage. 5 turn Advanced Ballistics, which requires 5 turn perquisite is neded to reach max range.
Alternatively almost free Fire Catapult tech (1 turn) grants lower ranged, lower powered version, that applies burning.
-cannon requires 6 turn Ballistics + 6 turn Gunpowder from Advancements Center to be trained, having initially 18 power for single target at 7 max range. Needs 5 turn upgrade for range and power. Needs 6 turn Hoop-and-Stave Cannon Costruction tech with 5+5 perquisites to reach 9 range and 24 power.
-hwacha requires 6 turn Ballistics + 6 turn Gunpowder from Advancements Center to be trained/build by workers, having initially 7x2 power for area attack at 5 max range. Needs 5 turn Field Artillery Ballistics for +1 range . Needs 6 turn tech with 5+5 perquisites to reach 7 range and 3xattack. Blacksmith's Ranged Damage lv1 for 4 turns and lv2 for 5 turns increases it's damage by +2.

Summary:
Ballista - 5 turn cost. Can be build by worker. Available from start with 7 range, 14 power.
Needs Siege Workshop, Advancements Center and 15 turn research to reach max 9 range for single target 17 power attack or 7 range area 12 power attack x2.
Catapult - 8 turn cost. Can be build by worker. Available after 6 turn tech with 7 range, 16 attack, 1 area.
Needs Siege Workshop , Advancements Center and 25 turn research to reach max 9 range, 19 attack, 2 area range.
Cannon- 6 turn cost. Available after 12 turn tech, needing Advancements Center with 7 range, 18 attack.
Needs Siege Workshop, Advancements Center and 24 turn research to reach max 9 range, 24 attack.
Hwacha - 6 turn cost. Available after 12 turn tech, needing Advancements Center with 5 range, 7x2 attack, 2 area range.
Needs Siege Workshop, Advancements Center and Blacksmith and 30 turn research to reach max 7 range, 9x3 attack, 2 area range.

Well, by the time u make one hwacha u also make one siege tower, but i think right now movement of cannon and hwacha will cost 1 action so they cannot immediately attack

That's right.
It also gives some advantage in ballista vs hwacha comparison.

I don't think going to lower damage is in any way needed.
Decreasing applied attacks by 1 is already huge nerf.
Remember that each is decreased by p.armors, so initial 7*2 would only deal 12 damage to normal medium infantry.

Yeah. but that is on area, so its 12 damage to the target, 8 damage to any other of these that are adjacent and 6 damage to 2 range ones, this being available as early as gunpowder (and now back to having no miss chance) would decrease even more the usefulness of medium infantry in the open field at that point of the game (which is quite early, since you only need 18 turns for a siege workshop produced hwacha without money couriers, or lower with builders.

It's either no miss chance or bugged weapon effect, that won't work if attack missed or enemy was killed by attack itself.
And it's only 5 range at start - very close to enemy units, considering, that after attack it cannot move.

Damage at range is decreased by stated percentage each tile.
So for Self Explode it's 0.7*0.7=0.49 on 2nd tile.

That kinda makes sense, but then the info is wrong

Yeah - it should be (70% decrease each tile).

Also that still leaves a bit of weirdness in the calculations:

• the 1807 damage case: (450 - 5) + (450*0.7 - 5)*3 + (450*0.7*0.7 - 5)*2 = 1806, 1 less than real damage
• the 220 damage case: (450*0.7*0.7 - 1) = 219.5, checks up, might've been rounded when shown
• the 751 damage case: (450*0.7 - 2) + (450*0.7*0.7 - 2)*2 = 750, 1 less than real damage
• the 958 damage case: (450*0.7 - 5) + (450*0.7*0.7 - 5)*3 = 956.5, 1.5 less than real damage

So in this case there still seems to be a 0.5 * tiles at 2 range damage missing (which is still rounded correctly at 1 tile in that range, but doesn't add up for 2 or 3 tiles) (and possibly for higher ranges too, though as far as I remember there's no 3 range area damage ability to check that)

=MAX(0,(1+damage_bonus)*abilityPower - enemy_armor)+3*MAX(0,CEIL((1+damage_bonus)*abilityPower*distance_decrease)-enemy_armor)+2*MAX(0,CEIL((1+damage_bonus)*abilityPower*distance_decrease^2)-enemy_armor)
It gives exactly 1807 for high castle.

Although seeing damage I must have forgot to apply some value changes - I meant for self explode to deal a little over 800 damage, while something like <500 for petard vs megas and it was calculated.
And still having in mind a nerf after some time (one or two versions) by adding upgrade to petardier and nerfing it's damage before it and also making both petardier and demolition ship affected by some sort of tech, requiring gunpowder to boost damage.

I checked.
I didn't change damage bonuses (they are currently at level, that was supposed to be temporary increase before abilities would affect all tiles).

Optimal point damage vs megas should be 477 for set petard and 811 for sacrifice explosion - armor reduction.
Currently it's 666 and 1837, which has to be fixed before publishing.

Also precisely what I mean by future changes:
tech giving +8 ability power, petardier having 15/20 ability power (currently has 18).
Set petard damage is ability power*0.8, so it would then be: 12/16/22.4 => damage vs megas in optimal point 396/528/741
For self explosion it would be 675/898/1258.

741 and 1258 would still be too much, even for late game imo, 1258 on self explode would mean that a single wagon with them can fully destroy a fully upgraded high castle, while set petard for 3 of them in an upgraded siege tower would have them dealing 2223 damage per turn to it, just a little less than 4 heavy trebuchet stand shots with 3 attacks, with a way lower total cost (9 vs 24), and even though their attack is not nearly as safe as a trebuchet from 11 range, they can always end the attack with an Explode Self if in danger, and that results in too much efficiency for a 3 turns unit imo.

Maybe something like ~350-400/~420-470/~500-550 for Set Petard and ~500-600/~600-700/~750-850 for Explode Self would be better?

The lowest I can agree on is final 23 ability power (e.g. 14/17/23), so Explode being 1035 at the end.
The point here is exactly to be possible for sacrificing 3 petardiers to bring down fully upgraded high castle.
With currently planned stats it would normally go for 372/450/609 for petard and 630/764/1035 for explode.

And remember, that somewhere along the line there will be wagon upgrade needed to even have capacity of 3.
So to bring 3 petardiers capable to immediately bring down High Castle would require enough investment.

[b2198]

It's either no miss chance or bugged weapon effect, that won't work if attack missed or enemy was killed by attack itself.

I wasn't saying that having no miss chance needed to be changed, I know about the current bugs of the weapon effect, I was just saying that without those bugs making it much weaker, it would go back to being very strong.

Hwacha - 6 turn cost. Available after 12 turn tech, needing Advancements Center with 5 range, 7x2 attack, 2 area range.
Needs Siege Workshop, Advancements Center and Blacksmith and 30 turn research to reach max 7 range, 9x3 attack, 2 area range.

And it's only 5 range at start - very close to enemy units, considering, that after attack it cannot move.

Oh, didn't know (or maybe didn't read properly) about the 5 range at start and movement costs action, my bad then. Should be fine then.

=MAX(0,(1+damage_bonus)*abilityPower - enemy_armor)+3*MAX(0,CEIL((1+damage_bonus)*abilityPower*distance_decrease)-enemy_armor)+2*MAX(0,CEIL((1+damage_bonus)*abilityPower*distance_decrease^2)-enemy_armor)
It gives exactly 1807 for high castle.

Ooh, it's rounded for each tile individually, that makes sense, my bad. (also isn't it MAX(1,...? So that the minimum damage for each tile is 1?)

[b2198]

The lowest I can agree on is final 23 ability power (e.g. 14/17/23), so Explode being 1035 at the end.
The point here is exactly to be possible for sacrificing 3 petardiers to bring down fully upgraded high castle.
With currently planned stats it would normally go for 372/450/609 for petard and 630/764/1035 for explode.

And remember, that somewhere along the line there will be wagon upgrade needed to even have capacity of 3.
So to bring 3 petardiers capable to immediately bring down High Castle would require enough investment.

Hm, ok, I still don't quite agree with them destroying a 3k hp high castle in 3 explosions, but I guess I might be overestimating their strength there, after all the update isn't out yet and I have no idea on how exactly the dynamics around wagons, siege and cavalry will play out after all those changes, they might become too strong, balanced, or I might be completely wrong and they might still be too weak. I guess I'll have to wait and see after the update is out, so I'll stop here about them.

[Endru1241]

=MAX(0,(1+damage_bonus)*abilityPower - enemy_armor)+3*MAX(0,CEIL((1+damage_bonus)*abilityPower*distance_decrease)-enemy_armor)+2*MAX(0,CEIL((1+damage_bonus)*abilityPower*distance_decrease^2)-enemy_armor)
It gives exactly 1807 for high castle.

Ooh, it's rounded for each tile individually, that makes sense, my bad. (also isn't it MAX(1,...? So that the minimum damage for each tile is 1?)

Yeah.
Probably.
I have to fix my calc.