Savra's orc balance suggestion

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Savra
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Savra's orc balance suggestion

Post by Savra » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:37 am

I know I'm going to dislike this but whatever:

I've been looking over the orc race and I've found that we could do the following:

Shamans:
Remove troll shaman and Warlock from the tc, reason being is the warlock is more in line with the warmage and not the mage so he's too powerful to start in a tc, troll shaman is an advanced healer so he shouldn't also be their.

1 spell range on orc and troll shaman healers potions, reason is that a potion isn't gonna do much good being thrown at somebody, plus the fact that orcs have good healers so 1 rng for these spells makes sense.

Archers:
On top of normal orc and goblins upgrades, their should be a ranged upgrade too. Similar to the cavalry upgrade basically so that orcs ranged units require orc/goblin/troll/merlock/savage clans/uruk upgrade + ranged upgrade to upgrade their ranged units since they have a lot currently.

It's either this or being back the miss chance and apply it to all orc ranged units with perfect accuracy at max upgrade. I know you think this will make things difficult when fighting races like elves with dodges but honestly that's all elves have going for them and orcs weren't good archers anyway. I was actually fine with orcs miss chance on top of elves dodges, orcs were meant to be melee primarily anyway.

Tc:
Remove orc upgrade, goblin upgrade, troll upgrade, cavalry upgrade, merlock upgrade, giant upgrade, thunderstorm, and savage clan upgrades from the tc. They don't need that many upgrades in the tc because that just makes the tc far to useful for them. Their not elves.

Remove merlock leader, crocodile rider, troll headhunter, troll axe thrower, and orc leader from the tc, they don't need these their. (Minitor will be removed later if I'm correct)

We can replace the troll shaman with the goblin shaman after spell list gets revamped, and the warlock with the pyromancer after spell revamp.

Techs:
We could probably get away with making merlocks and Medline into a subrace that just be researched first since they are quite powerful. Trolls can be made into a sub faction that had to be researched too.

Since I know it won't be long before goblin cannon fodder gets upgrades I suggest a new tech called goblin ingenuity (2 levels), basically goblin cannon fodder, goblin zepplin, and goblin outpost would require this and goblin upgrade to unlock the next tier, goblin cannon fodder still requires goblin grenade to acquire it, goblin zepplin will be in goblinoid subfaction.

Merlocks and merblins:
Remove them from the goblin tent and orc tent and leave them in the merlock hut.

Fortifications:
Once the goblin outpost is finished we could increase the amount of time it takes for the orcs to build the volcano tower, it would be like the fortress for humans were the goblin outpost would be like the guard tower.

This should cut them down a notch or 2 for other races to combat. The trolls race could cost around 5-6 turns to get, the merlocks one could take 4-5 turns to aquire.

This is my suggestion @Alexander82, @makazuwr32.

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makazuwr32
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Re: Savra's orc balance suggestion

Post by makazuwr32 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:00 am

That is up to alex.

If alex will agree at last on balancing orcs than i can work on them.

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SirLuciano
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Re: Savra's orc balance suggestion

Post by SirLuciano » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:07 am

I agree because orcs are a bit powerful @makazuwr32 said the orcs can disintegrate any races especially when their giants are unleashed but I don't mind the new Uruk units because they look cool
LONG UNLIVE THE UNDEAD!

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makazuwr32
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Re: Savra's orc balance suggestion

Post by makazuwr32 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:19 am

For uruks and/or other subs it is fine to add new units. But not for main part of race.

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DreJaDe
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Re: Savra's orc balance suggestion

Post by DreJaDe » Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:04 am

I agree with this though they would be weaken so much in the early game for this. With this I could continue my elf shananigans again. Yey.

I believe this would be good but I think orc warlock is ok in TC if his spells upg is removed from TC.

I don't really know this stuff with orc but this looks good.

Also miss chance for archers or lower the stats. I mean what's the point of them having higher dmg than elf archer anyway. Elf archer can be spelled for higher dmg but that's not the point.

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Alexander82
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Re: Savra's orc balance suggestion

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:31 pm

Savra wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:37 am
Shamans:
Remove troll shaman and Warlock from the tc, reason being is the warlock is more in line with the warmage and not the mage so he's too powerful to start in a tc, troll shaman is an advanced healer so he shouldn't also be their.
what you mean about the warlock being more like the warmage? Warlock spells are mostly taken from main spellcasters of other races and it is a single action unit. Later all orcish caster will be a bit reworked when all races' casterswill have tiers.
Savra wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:37 am

1 spell range on orc and troll shaman healers potions, reason is that a potion isn't gonna do much good being thrown at somebody, plus the fact that orcs have good healers so 1 rng for these spells makes sense.
Those will remain as they are. the potion might simply be thrown to the target to drink it. If we wanted realism then potions should work like lembas of elves (so that any orc can drink a potion that bring with himself) but I think that current healings are an acceptable compromise.
Savra wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:37 am
Archers:
On top of normal orc and goblins upgrades, their should be a ranged upgrade too. Similar to the cavalry upgrade basically so that orcs ranged units require orc/goblin/troll/merlock/savage clans/uruk upgrade + ranged upgrade to upgrade their ranged units since they have a lot currently.

It's either this or being back the miss chance and apply it to all orc ranged units with perfect accuracy at max upgrade. I know you think this will make things difficult when fighting races like elves with dodges but honestly that's all elves have going for them and orcs weren't good archers anyway. I was actually fine with orcs miss chance on top of elves dodges, orcs were meant to be melee primarily anyway.
I have removed miss chance for all the archers in game and I haven't any intention about adding it again (undead archers nor gunners have miss chance anymore).

About orcish ranged units requiring extra techs I don't think it is needed. Aside elite units like giants or cavalry their ranged are in line with other basic infantry units and they should upgrade together with infantry. Also not so far ago I've raised orcish racial techs costs so we either leave those as they are or I lower back the racial techs and add a dedicated tech only for ranged units.
Savra wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:37 am
Since I know it won't be long before goblin cannon fodder gets upgrades I suggest a new tech called goblin ingenuity (2 levels), basically goblin cannon fodder, goblin zepplin, and goblin outpost would require this and goblin upgrade to unlock the next tier, goblin cannon fodder still requires goblin grenade to acquire it, goblin zepplin will be in goblinoid subfaction.
do you mean engineering?
If I add this new tech (it could be fine) I would remove goblin grenade as a requirement (it was made just not to add a single tech for a unit only)

[quote=Savra post_id=93726 time=1575956226 user_id=9544
Tc:
Remove orc upgrade, goblin upgrade, troll upgrade, cavalry upgrade, merlock upgrade, giant upgrade, thunderstorm, and savage clan upgrades from the tc. They don't need that many upgrades in the tc because that just makes the tc far to useful for them. Their not elves.
[/quote]

So what? Why elves should have tc made useful and not orcs? I can't understand what you mean. About racial upgrades we have already something planned though.
Savra wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:37 am
Remove merlock leader, crocodile rider, troll headhunter, troll axe thrower, and orc leader from the tc, they don't need these their. (Minitor will be removed later if I'm correct)
I want those units available on land too (as they are amphibious). What is minitor?
Savra wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:37 am
We can replace the troll shaman with the goblin shaman after spell list gets revamped, and the warlock with the pyromancer after spell revamp.
all casters will have a share of current buffs and specific spells so you can't buff the whole army with just orc shamans.Pyromancer can come later
Savra wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:37 am
Techs:
We could probably get away with making merlocks and Medline into a subrace that just be researched first since they are quite powerful. Trolls can be made into a sub faction that had to be researched too.
Merlock are the basic orcish navy and they are already a sub (they require an extra tech)
Trolls are meant to be part of the basic army (they are the basic giants you get before savages and headhunters are needed from the start)
Savra wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:37 am
Merlocks and merblins:
Remove them from the goblin tent and orc tent and leave them in the merlock hut.
No, as orcs/goblin subs I want them available at their main race tents
Savra wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:37 am
Fortifications:
Once the goblin outpost is finished we could increase the amount of time it takes for the orcs to build the volcano tower, it would be like the fortress for humans were the goblin outpost would be like the guard tower.
buildings hp and building times will be remade for all races
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Alexander82
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Re: Savra's orc balance suggestion

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:33 pm

about spell upgrades:

Currently fireball and thunderstorm upgrades are shared with humans and elves so if elves have thunderstorm at tc it becomes inevitably available for orcs too
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makazuwr32
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Re: Savra's orc balance suggestion

Post by makazuwr32 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:42 pm

Thundersorm specifically:
We can freely move tech for it into temple of nature for elves and remove from tc.

And about "making tc less useful for orcs":
I partially agree with this change but i also agree that tc techs should not be empty and tus they need some replacements. Those additional techs like posion weapons, orc skin, goblin shout, goblin grenade will fit well.

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Alexander82
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Re: Savra's orc balance suggestion

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:29 pm

Anyway we already have plan for that matter, aren't we?

I just had a hard time implementing new contents cause of personal problems.
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Savra
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Re: Savra's orc balance suggestion

Post by Savra » Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:30 am

The thing about the warlock being like the orcs version of the warmage is because his whole spell list is practically offensive based, pyromancer I planned to update my suggested spells for it to just fire bolt (single target fire spell like magic missile), fire wall (requires research), and torch (non offensive spell that reveals an area). Goblin shaman I planned to update my suggested spells list for him too, 30%or50% regeneration (you choose), goblin swiftness (ups dodge counter by 10%), and disenchant.

Those are ideal spell casters for orcs in the tc, not warlock and troll shaman because those 2 are too strong of units to come from their. As for techs my suggestion is to leave in the tc only techs that effect fortifications, non unit stat upgrading techs, and other simple techs, basically like goblin engineering which effects fortifications. Goblin engineering btw was a 2 stage upgrade for goblin fortifications and inventions like cannon fodder. All unit upgrading techs should be left to their corresponding buildings because of you can access all those techs in the tc, why bother making the orc tent and goblin tent? Same goes for putting all those units in the tc, what use are factories if you can get all those units and some from the tc, kinda makes The factories pointless if you ask me. The only useful structures by then would be structures that still have unique units that can only be acquired from their corresponding factories like uruk tent, monster cave, and volcano.

As for the potions the you can't expect all the orcs to catch those of their thrown to them, at least lower the range to 2-3. Besides potions do better if their drunk and not thrown. And changing their Unique healing method over to generic healing like elves, dwarves, and humans is a big no. I have in mind unique healing methods for undead, dwarves, and scaledfolk being that they lack the ability to use divine magic (or its difficult in dwarves case).

If we add an extra upgrade to ranged units like the throwers and archers (not the siege units) then it should even the playing field a bit for other races, and since a majority of the orcs "good" ranged units are in the orc tent we can just set the upgrade in their.

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Re: Savra's orc balance suggestion

Post by Kharaxx » Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:06 am

I like Savras idea a lot.

Orks have this unique mechanic with all their subraces, that looks great on paper.

In practice you just need cave + town and you have access to almost everything except Uruks. (I think some luxury upgrades like poison or Troll summons are missing as well)

So if you have 3 town you dont have to think what subraces you need...just build 3 caves :)

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Alexander82
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Re: Savra's orc balance suggestion

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:55 pm

orcs upgrades that are currently at tcs will be available later to specific racial tents plus a new building (gladiators' pit) that will be for them like a sort of advancement center
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Kharaxx
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Re: Savra's orc balance suggestion

Post by Kharaxx » Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:56 pm

Alexander82 wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:55 pm
orcs upgrades that are currently at tcs will be available later to specific racial tents plus a new building (gladiators' pit) that will be for them like a sort of advancement center
That's sounds nice

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