Mega buildings and Mini megas — ARCHIVED

[Alexander82]

I've been discussing about the topic with @Stratego (dev) since He likes the idea of having more mega buildings and 2x2 factories while, even though I like it too, think that might become impractical since you haven't often a 2x2 space to make a factory (given also that map makers are encouraged to avoid exceeding 30x30 size for multiplayer maps) and I want for mega buildings to hold all elite units. Also there is the fact we have a limit of how many buildings we can make in a game, especially on small maps with few tcs setting.

We are coming up with a few possibilities and it seems that we could make a few things.

1) all factories will be made in 2 versions: the 1x1 versions that are like the ones we are used to build now and the 2x2 versions that will have more hp (at least 4 times), more slots and higher heal rate. Moreover, like megas, these could have attacks and/or special abilities

2) we'll make multiple 3x2 megas for every race that will be available for different terrains so every race will have versions buildable on forests/mountains/water...

3) to actually reduce the need for extra buildings the sub-race/faction buildings will stop being factories but, instead, will become a requirement to enable sub production in the basic factories and in megas. So if you research imperials you will have to build the imperial tower to allow all units in castles, infantry imperial in barracks, ranged imperials at the archery range and so on.

Let us know what you think.

[Stratego (dev)]

Actually i mentioned only that i would like "visually" more mega buildings in the games, any kind:
a) non factory megas like "Fort" in AOS, that is a defensive building only
b) some factory like things (having a few set of unit kinds built in it - even those kind of units already buldable elsewhere)
eg1: after necropolis coming in, keeping mansion to build vampires only and give some defense by shooting.
eg2: Mega TC, givin all buildbales as a normal TC, consideered not a TC naturally.
eg3: marketplae thing i mentioned somewhere - tryining only some special caravan unit for trading techs and maybe some production (idea stolen from AOK)
eg4: big water fishing area, that trains fishboats only (or some similiar), or some sea animal things.
c) some no factory, nor defensive, but giving something else: eg. some aura, or healing , or unlocks a producable unit (like a tech requirement)
eg1: a big shrine giging shelter 6 units and some buffing aura
eg2: A big "wonder" that what gets built (many build turns like 100) than the palyer won (idea stolen from AOK)
eg3: Marketplace can be a non productive too if built right beside ally marketplace

any of these could be
a1) counted as normal factory (if has production)
b1) counted as mega building (if has production)
(does not matter)

[Alexander82]

Everything is fine as long it doesn't limit too much gameplay.

I especially want to avoid making megas that have only a portion of the army because that could limit too much the game strategy (once you get the best sub that has the more effective units you stop making the others)

I agree with all that is not a factory since it can be used if possible or not if it isn't.

I prefer instead make them on different terrains (so they can be useful situationally and they could look good when placed on the terrain they belong too) or megas that have different effects (auras instead of damage or simply different attack stats like one stronger but with a lower range and the opposite)

Wonders, imho, could be nice but should be an optional setting

[General Brave]

But I like the idea of subs having megas, don't know that one building should hold all of it especially if they have quite a bit of content.

[makazuwr32]

I like idea №1 and maybe some mega fortifications without production.

I was also thinking to divide producting and defending functions of existing racial megas:
One 3x2 or 2x2 mega building (weaker than current ones) will become actual mega factories without attack but maybe with some abilities and/or better healing;
Another(s) mega building(s) will be fortified builings with no production and their role would be defencive.

[Savra]

I actually just prefer idea 1 but we leave the megas as a dual purpose building (production and fortification). 2x2 seems to be a nice idea but we can't do it the way we've done some of the others like the keep, old mountain stronghold, and my dark citadel, they were too flat looking. As for fortifications I see them being more smaller and easier to place, with various abilities. The 2x2 factories could have act similar to the mega but could also get abilities in place of a normal attack e.g. Sanctuary tree which uses bears (currently still working on) as its defence over normal arrows. I have plans for the main megas that would make them a bit more useful and harder to destroy. Plus, I don't feel like making multiple new megas when the ones we have currently could be modified to be more useful like dwarves and orcs being able to build theirs on mountains, elves and scaledfolks can build theirs on forests, and undead and humans can only build theirs on clear ground. Each one will have abilities or upgrades that would supplement their set backs, e.g. Humans and undead would have upgrades that could up the health of the mega and other stats as well as give them new abilities. Another example of this is the fact that I plan for the palace (humans mega) to get trebuchet towers instead of archers, making it have the same range as a trebuchet (of course the upgrade to palace will have to compensate for this but the building limitations also compensate for this as well).

[makazuwr32]

Latest approved idea about megas, mini megas and so n between me and alex:

1. Each race will have only 1 type of 2x3 mega building. This mega building later will be able to produce ALL units of corresponding race INCLUDING subs and naval (if near water).
2. Each race will get 2 2x2 mini megas for base race and additional mini-mega per each sub.
3. Mini megas will count still as mega buildings.
4. Mini megas will have 3 general categories:
4.1. Factory mini mega - will be able to produce all units and research all techs of race but will be weakest one, no defencive abilities or attack. Can have speeding up production abilities (like wisp summon or dig up corpses). Main race only (is not locked behind subs).
4.2. Fortification mini mega - will be able to produce only minimal amount of units (foot based tc units only) but has multiple defencive abilities and/or attack. Main race only (is not locked behind subs). The toughest mini-mega (only 2x3 mega is tougher).
4.3. Golden middle - these ones will have tc production like fortification mini but also will get all production from correspoding sub. Will have abilities to defend itself, alas not that powerful as fortification mini. Sub-race exclusive type.
5. Big megas will also get their defencive abilities buffed (after implementation of 4.1 and 4.2 for each race). Big megas also will get highly increased cost to build one.

[Stratego (dev)]

1. i would not put all units into one building, hard for UI too and weird too - and why restrict to have only 1 type of mega building? i am welcome to have many types 2-3 mega or more if we have images for them.
2..4 good, but again i would not restrict to 2 buildings for each race, can be any number.

in general i dont think same "structure" or possiblities of buildings looks good for all races.
there are "builder" races that should have more type of buildings, and there are "non-builder" races that should have fewer types of buildings.

please dont make general "rules" about building counts.
races should differ in this (and many other aspects) too.

[Anchar]

By type, we mean a building that can be built in the amount of 1 piece, or you can also build 20 pieces of mega buildings, depending on the number of centers, but choosing from their varieties?

[makazuwr32]

they all will count as megas for construction (so you can build 1 big mega and 3 mini or 3 mega and 1 mini).

Big mega we agreed to make "Jack-of-all-trades" building - best building of race but also the most costly one (best fortification, best production, best abilities)

As for 2x2 mini megas these are plans for near future (i mean that you've called "restrictions"). It is actually a list of how many minimally do we need images and ideas for buildings.

And yes they all will count for town center's count as 1 mega each.

[Stratego (dev)]

what i mean:
- each race should have more mega 2x3 buildings, we should not state to have only one - moreover! even 3x3 or anxy size that can look good to an image and still playable (not too big to build eg. 10x10 is not an option naturally).
- each race should have more mini mega 2x2 buildings (if we call 2x2 size mini-mega), we should not state to have only two for base and any such restriction.
- i dont really support a building having ALL trainable units in them - the UI is harder to handle for player to select unit to train - and seems a little weird too a "jolly joker" building.
- there should not be equal number of megas and mini-megas among races, we should have some races having more type of buildings than others - eg: orcs should have minimal type of buildings, while dwarfs should have many type of buildings (if i am right that orcs are not builders while dwarves are builders)

[makazuwr32]

Later there is an option to add more 2x3 megas but for now 1 is enough.
Again for base race (non hidden behind any subs) those 2 mini mgeas are just a base for now so we can have something to start with the expansion of mega buildings in general.

And again this is not ending plans as we do not plan to end development of aof. They are plans to expand the mega buildings. Similar to first step.
And such restrictions for this step are required in order to not get 257 mini megas for dwarves, 9001 for orcs and 100500 for humans and 0 for undeads, elves and scalefolks just because nobody wants to draw them or has no ideas for them.

About "All units" this part will be discussable than. But for now all sub units for sure will be trainable in big mega.

[Stratego (dev)]

i emailed you

[makazuwr32]

answered.

[makazuwr32]

Archived for now.
Later we will re-open discussion.