Poison and Fire

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GregDB
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Poison and Fire

Post by GregDB » Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:10 am

Dryads are mobile unit, but their damage is too small. Fire effects are stackable on single target, why not to make poison stackable too? So units with poison effects might be much more usefull. Also it will let to elves stop undead early agression with knights spam, cos (its strange) poison work on undead units (they are dead, how poison can deal dmg to them? Or its toxic, so it can, hm, logic in games).
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DreJaDe
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Re: Poison and Fire

Post by DreJaDe » Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:51 am

Actually elves' wolf spam is more dangerous than the undead Knight at first, they can eat undeads if the map is too small. Poison I think is just a game mechanic like many other things here, just treat it as fantasy.

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makazuwr32
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Re: Poison and Fire

Post by makazuwr32 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:49 am

Dryad will be later updated. But poison mechanic (of current poison) will stay as it is right now.

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Puss_in_Boots
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Re: Poison and Fire

Post by Puss_in_Boots » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:26 am

I still think skeletons should be immune to poison, fire is common enough to burn them.
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DreJaDe
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Re: Poison and Fire

Post by DreJaDe » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:49 am

IDK about that, I don't think burns are that easy to burn but if fantasy, maybe (like the poison)?

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Puss_in_Boots
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Re: Poison and Fire

Post by Puss_in_Boots » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:47 pm

In fantasy poison is still poison, and you need flowing blood, or a working digestive system for it to do any harm. Most Undeads don't have either.
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GregDB
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Re: Poison and Fire

Post by GregDB » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:34 am

Poison also can be toxic dmg, like acid. Acid corrodes bones better than fire.
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makazuwr32
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Re: Poison and Fire

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:17 am

Acid and poison are different things. Poison should not affect undeads. Any forms of poison.

Acid on the other hand should affect undeads, buildings and heavy armored units.

Also we are thinking about at least 3 acid effects:
Disarmoring acid, that lowers enemy armor, affects all units;
Damaging acid, that will work like fire, including stacking with itself, affects categories above, unlisted categories won't be affected;
Anti-building acid, similar to damaging, but less powerful against normal units and more powerful against buildings.

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Re: Poison and Fire

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sun May 10, 2020 5:40 am

here i just found out that poison is till not stackable in aof (it works nicely in aos)

what do u think about stackable poison in AOF too?
(would help against very big/armored fellas)

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Savra
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Re: Poison and Fire

Post by Savra » Sun May 10, 2020 6:02 am

It was stackable in the last update, I was wondering what happened to that?

It would be a helpful feature when dealing with heavy units that can't be burned to death.

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Re: Poison and Fire

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sun May 10, 2020 6:05 am

in AOF?
i see it not stacking now

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Savra
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Re: Poison and Fire

Post by Savra » Sun May 10, 2020 6:12 am

It doesn't now, but in the last update I was able to do that. I found out about it when I was using the scaledfolks poison towers to shoot up an olog hai and the poison stacking helped. (On top of the fire damage from the fire towers ;) )

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makazuwr32
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Re: Poison and Fire

Post by makazuwr32 » Sun May 10, 2020 6:16 am

The reason for that is that alex doesn't want stackable poison.
Or otherwise he will lower damage of poison down to 1/stack.

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Savra
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Re: Poison and Fire

Post by Savra » Sun May 10, 2020 6:27 am

Or just let it do 3 damage per turn, it would help versus orcs, plus it's not like a certain other race suffers from a similar problem with fire, this doesn't seem so bad compared to that. Besides it would make poison more useful.

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Alexander82
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Re: Poison and Fire

Post by Alexander82 » Sun May 10, 2020 10:09 pm

I prefer single instances of poison and making poison archers cheaper as we did with fire archers or lower poison to 1 damage turn and make its duration longer (like 10 turns or something similar). The problem of poison is that it basically affect anything but buildings and siege units and making it stackable will just make obsolete any unit that is not a poison archer.

Fire is definitely effective against skeletons but those are units that can be easily replaced by reanimation so it is not a big issue as it would be for another race (undeads that aren't skeletons aren't affected by fire so using phantoms or unholy riders should be safe against heavy fire users)

Maybe we might make fire not stackable as well but that should wait the implementation of better sieges for all races that lack it like elves and undeads (that is planned already).

Against heavy units I was already planning a new bonus system based on the weapons used by the units that would also make pikes effective against giant units and dragons so poison would mostly be important against shielders.

About poison and undeads... they MUST not be affected by poison but at the moment I couldn't succeed into scripting that thing.

I even created a new category that includes all races aside undeads but it seems I can't make it work. If @Stratego (dev) can help me it would be great.
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Alexander82
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Re: Poison and Fire

Post by Alexander82 » Sun May 10, 2020 10:30 pm

btw what about making poison divided into 2 different effects?

one effect is the not stackable poison and would deal 2 DoT and another effect would be the stackable part of poison and would deal 1 DoT.

When hit with multiple instances of poison you wouldn't get 3 damage each but you would get 3 damage from the first instance and 1 extra damage from any additional hit, so if hit by 4 attacks you wouldn't get 12 DoT but 6 DoT so it would be good to focus on single stronger units since you still get a increased amount of damage over time.

That 2nd stackable effect would last more than the initial effect (I was thinking 10 turns) and would make mandatory to heal the target to remove poison since the target would mostly die before the poison expires.
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Savra
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Re: Poison and Fire

Post by Savra » Mon May 11, 2020 4:35 am

Sounds good, but I think we could keep stackable fire being that it is helpful against trolls who can regenerate.

SeekTruth
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Re: Poison and Fire

Post by SeekTruth » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:00 am

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 5:40 am
here i just found out that poison is till not stackable in aof (it works nicely in aos)

what do u think about stackable poison in AOF too?
(would help against very big/armored fellas)
it really confuses my why fire is stackable but not poison. It makes poison kinda crap and fire way OP

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Alexander82
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Re: Poison and Fire

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:44 pm

SeekTruth wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:00 am
Stratego (dev) wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 5:40 am
here i just found out that poison is till not stackable in aof (it works nicely in aos)

what do u think about stackable poison in AOF too?
(would help against very big/armored fellas)
it really confuses my why fire is stackable but not poison. It makes poison kinda crap and fire way OP
Basically cause fire affect a much thinner range of targets that aren't buildings (basically any unit that is not undead).
The units affected by fire are generally with high healt or at least high range or affected by mending.

4 damage/turn stackable would make poison too strong in my opinion, also because we lowered the cost of poison archers and at the same time all orcs get poison weapon selfcast.

I'd rather remove stackable fire than making the poison stackable (if that bothers the players).
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Midonik
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Re: Poison and Fire

Post by Midonik » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:54 pm

I'll be honest with you - let's not change and justify it with "tradition".
It will effect (possibly break) balance in both mp and campaign maps and it's really not such a big deal.



There is many other things that make little sense in game:
Fire burning the sceletons
Buildings and ships being just destroyed by melee infantry
Etc.

Fixing those little issue is not the most important thing right now, and I assure you that balance and half complete races bother players MUUUCH more.
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Alexander82
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Re: Poison and Fire

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:48 pm

I agree with you and I think it is better as it currently is. Fire was born as something to use against buildings and it is set to be effective against them. In case of poison that extra 4 damage can just be enough to make a unit die the following turn.
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