Spartan cost 6? IMPLEMENTED

[godOfKings]

Lots of units that are counters to anti-spartan units, r weak to Spartans themselves

[LordOfAles]

I understand, i played the game way back at 2014/2015... It's just that some strategies are way too exploited againts spartans, which is why i think it should cost 6. Since our thought constantly keep clashing, let's ask someone else then

[Belfry777]

Lest just wait on "cool guy" to decide, either to make Spartans leave the game, or to make great again!

[makazuwr32]

They are actually great for their cost and they'll hold their place great.
Spartans are NOT a siege units or attack units - they aren't for attack forces. but if you neeed to hold something then they are exeptional. especially in holding tc's.

So i don't see reasons to decrease their cost even for a bit.

But instead we can make it so that they'll also benefit from blacksmith upgrades (weapon or armor, not both)

[Belfry777]

well yes I agree that they are not attack units but... defending, never! heavy knights and just plain knights take a spartan to yellow in the first hit let alone the fact that players usually team knights up anyway, there is many other cheaper and way better defenses anyway like the wall and which cost 3 turns by builder. So in conclusion Spartans will never be used, even with the blacksmith upgrades mainly because of their turn cost.

[General Brave]

Make it a bit cheaper like five or revamp it, like making it to become stronger when standing near other Spartans.

[Belfry777]

We all ready have that idea.

[makazuwr32]

well yes I agree that they are not attack units but... defending, never! heavy knights and just plain knights take a spartan to yellow in the first hit let alone the fact that players usually team knights up anyway, there is many other cheaper and way better defenses anyway like the wall and which cost 3 turns by builder. So in conclusion Spartans will never be used, even with the blacksmith upgrades mainly because of their turn cost.

1. spartans are healed FULLY even from 1 hp in town.
2. Normal Knight deals 9 damage (yes this turns his health bar yellow, but he still can stand for at least 3 more strikes from knights) to Spartan and fully upgraded heavy knight deals 15 damage only so you will need at least 3 normal knights and 4 hp is still left or 2 heavy knights and 1 hp left.
3. If you did only 30 damage to spartan in tc and left him then next round he'll be fully healed -> you need to repeat this over again. Or get flailman.
4. Wall is right cheaper but they need your worker to build it instead for example barracks or castle. Also there is way too much counters to walls compared to spartan. And if you need to protect your Tc in open field than it'll be really painful to do it with walls because this means you need 12 actions of your workers.
5. you can make them offencive in this way: move them into wagon, capture enemy tc, move spartan into tc and tc is guaranteed safe from everything exept of heavy catapults or assasins because your enemy don't know what is there so powerful that he can't kill so fast.

[godOfKings]

EXACTLY makazuwr u r the MAN, thanks for saying everything that i thought of too, especially inside battering ram they r the best units for holding tc, u dont atk with saprtans, u atk with catapults but once the town is empty u can guard it with a spartan and the enemy will hardly ever b able to take back their tc, i m really glad there is someone els who has the same thought as me

[godOfKings]

if enemy doesnt send the spartan forward, the defender will never know there is a spartan and he wont b making any flail soldier, just send a wagon and then the spartan will go BANG emptying everything in the town and capturing it while the defender just watches in shock

[LordOfAles]

I was just comparing this with other popular strategies (knights in wagons, catapults in wagons etc.). I don't say i don't agree with your opinions tho. Let's hear COOLguy first.

[COOLguy]

I think mak and GoK have very valid points. Of the things that can kill a Spartan by themselves -
Elephant - anti infantry (especially spartan) and equal cost
knight - the counter to the spartan. supposed to beat it
flail/mace - anti infantry (I think whichever attacks first wins) They are cheaper, but can be EASILY killed by other things
catapult - costs more. anti infantry. anti infantry. Why shouldn't it? Plus, Spartans can actually kill catapults.

Saying that the wagon o' knights strategy means the Spartan is unbalanced is like saying the "I build only halberdiers" means the knights are unbalanced.

[LordOfAles]

Then it stays cost 7

[Belfry777]

But we still have the same problem! We need something done.

[makazuwr32]

I don't see any problems here - my spartan with the help of healer/priest/templar can wistand 3 normal knights forever.

[Belfry777]

Not an army of ballistas! with how cheep they are, they would be shredded! Now i'm in support of black smith upgrades.

[makazuwr32]

Ballistas are dealing ranged damage, not melee.
Also they mustn't be themself. You are trying to tell that some unit is weak because it is shreddered by another unit easily.
You must have not a one unit but a combination of units: attacking units like cavalry, siege units, defending units, antiunits and so on...

Or if you want to play absolutely balanced game, than play "No upgrades" game.

[Belfry777]

the same problem still arises Spartans aren't used. And the only person that has a solution is me. Do you have a answer? Or is it just game strategy.

[godOfKings]

Spartan only gets like 8 damage from ballista that too if they don't miss, and using wagons help u easily get to the ballista and destroy them with one hit

[godOfKings]

And if u know enemy is using ballista y would u use Spartans instead of knights? Or fire archers inside siege mantlets, or BEST battering rams that get only 1 damage from them

[COOLguy]

Ballista is OP. Plus they deal range damage and the spartan has pierce armor. Oddly enough the spartan is better at killing OP ballista than the knights.

the same problem still arises Spartans aren't used. And the only person that has a solution is me. Do you have a answer? Or is it just game strategy.

That is correct - game strategy.

[Belfry777]

ok this topic a answered!

[Belfry777]

Spartans are the king of the infantry. Arguably the toughest fighters of all time, their skill and bravery we still study today. Yet in AOS they are underused and not worthwhile so that is why I suggest adding health to the spartan unit or reducing its cost to 6.

[Stratego (dev)]

fine by me

[Morningwarrior]

Yeah

[Endru1241]

I'm afraid of arms race effect with potential increasing hp.
Besides what we truly need is proper medieval upgradeable heavy infantry to be used frequently.

Going back to hoplite.
Hoplites are super strong vs regular units - soldiers, archers, skirmishers canot hurt him. Knight barely damages him with equal counter.
Even later units are not so effective:
- in the whole archery range only poison archers and pavaise can do some damage.
- stables, which trains units supposely effective vs imfantry are not so great againts hoplites too - they deal damage but still looses 1 on 1.
- church order units cn deafeat him, but only mounted ones with clever use of retreat and healing.

He only looses against absurdly common anti-infantry infantry and siege.

There are few units that tips me off as potentially op considering the cost - maceman ( good vs infantry and buildings without any real disadvantages), hatamoto ( anti-infantry bonus gained is too much along with speed and health, zweihander - the same, too universal and persian immortal - that one i'm wondering about - he's castle and quite a high cost.
Additionaly catapults are clearly op and they are one of hoplite nemesis units.

Summing up - he's not too weak or too costly - it's other units that are the problem.

[makazuwr32]

Maceman and flail soldier should not have as for me bonuses to buildings.
For hatamoto i would prefer to see bonus to buildings alone but with 10-11 attack instead of 9 on samurai.

Others didn't try yet.

[Endru1241]

When I calculated proper (imho) dismounted knights stats the last upgrade came as almost identical to hoplite (-2 armors).
I think that may be indication, that I was wrong about hoplite build time and he should be 6-turn unit (even with planned anti-infantry nerf).
So I'm gonna change it in next pack.

[Puss_in_Boots]

Ok, problem solved. This topic is IMPLEMENTED.