Flak 40 spam is getting out of hand

[DreJaDe]

As much as I like to use it as an axis main for naval battle, the flak 40 is just way too useful that spamming them is getting out of hand.

Here's a pretty simple suggestion, make it an occupiable building that can be occupied by enemy so that players will be forced to defend it or not defending it can cost them the defense.

They should also now be eligible for flame thrower skill if this can be implemented.

I believe this is a necessary fix.

@Stratego (dev)
@TntAttack
@Dahdee
@Jasondunkel

[Dahdee]

Here's a pretty simple suggestion, make it an occupiable building that can be occupied by enemy so that players will be forced to defend it or not defending it can cost them the defense.

They should also now be eligible for flame thrower skill if this can be implemented.

I believe this is a necessary fix.

that is a simple solution, and I'm good with it. That being said I'd like to offer another solution as well. This is not a Flak40 that we are discussing. It's a 28 ton, double barreled Flak40. One of the reasons it's such an issue is it's just too OP. The gun we are using and spamming all over is the main armament if the few flak towers around the major German cities in the war. I believe Jasondunkel already pointed this out and I also believe he said something about it should be the mega. TBH, I think the flakzwilling 40 should be the armament of the mega. What I mean by that is the AA of the mega should be the damage and range of the flakzwilling 40, meaning it may no longer be spammed all over the place. In its place, as the building AA the flakzwilling has become, we could implement the single barreled and more produced flak40, and implement it as DreJaDe suggested as an occupiable building. That works because it was generally also built as static although some were mounted on rail flatbeds. So, with this option you could implement DreJaDe's idea, and add some balance to the game as far as German AA power goes. It would obviously be less powerful, but you could keep it at close to the same cost. That is also fair considering what it costs to build a mega, which would now have the powerful 2 shot flakzwilling 40 as it's gun in place of the 3 shot thing it has now. Everything else about the mega including it's image would remain the same. So, that is my second option. If no one else agrees, I give DreJaDe's idea +1. I do think however the second option, although it would require more effort to implement, helps keep German AA from being too OP. And, I know everyone is looking for balance.

[TntAttack]

Here's a pretty simple suggestion, make it an occupiable building that can be occupied by enemy so that players will be forced to defend it or not defending it can cost them the defense.

They should also now be eligible for flame thrower skill if this can be implemented.

I believe this is a necessary fix.

that is a simple solution, and I'm good with it. That being said I'd like to offer another solution as well. This is not a Flak40 that we are discussing. It's a 28 ton, double barreled Flak40. One of the reasons it's such an issue is it's just too OP. The gun we are using and spamming all over is the main armament if the few flak towers around the major German cities in the war. I believe Jasondunkel already pointed this out and I also believe he said something about it should be the mega. TBH, I think the flakzwilling 40 should be the armament of the mega. What I mean by that is the AA of the mega should be the damage and range of the flakzwilling 40, meaning it may no longer be spammed all over the place. In its place, as the building AA the flakzwilling has become, we could implement the single barreled and more produced flak40, and implement it as DreJaDe suggested as an occupiable building. That works because it was generally also built as static although some were mounted on rail flatbeds. So, with this option you could implement DreJaDe's idea, and add some balance to the game as far as German AA power goes. It would obviously be less powerful, but you could keep it at close to the same cost. That is also fair considering what it costs to build a mega, which would now have the powerful 2 shot flakzwilling 40 as it's gun in place of the 3 shot thing it has now. Everything else about the mega including it's image would remain the same. So, that is my second option. If no one else agrees, I give DreJaDe's idea +1. I do think however the second option, although it would require more effort to implement, helps keep German AA from being too OP. And, I know everyone is looking for balance.

Please space out your text for readability thanks. I agree with Dahee, his second idea sounds much more interesting than making them occupiable (I agree with them being occupiable) AND a mega building.

I also would like to see some allied version of this special "buildings", so far the British have their naval artillery and that's it.

[Dahdee]

Just to clarify, I'm not talking about a new mega. I only propose giving the current mega the attack stats of the Flakzwilling ONLY in place of its current AA attack. Everything else about the mega would remain the same. I'm proposing we NOT make Flakzwilling on its own anymore. You would be basically making it when you make a mega. In its place we make Flak40 that should have half the damage as a it's double barreled brother, the Flakzwilling 40. And we implement what DreJaDe said about making that an occupiable building that you must defend or lose. That way you cannot populate the map with OP AA. Make the new Flak40 cost roughly the same as the current Flakzwilling 40, to keep it a sacrifice of manpower to build. If it still gets spammed because a player has an enormous pool of engineers, it's not so OP because it should be half the damage of the other, therefore not one shotting every single air unit.

[DreJaDe]

I'm talking about flakwilling 40
Aka Flak40

Also, its really hard to understand you @Dahdee when you comment without in just one paragraph.

Also, although it's double barreled. It's has mostly the same rate of fire as British Flak and Flak 88. Don't really understand much of it's 2 turn attack besides flavor. I mean, ifs a big gun so obviously, it would fire slower.

Can I ask why it has 2 attacks again @Jasondunkel and @Stratego (dev)?.

[Dahdee]

Sorry, about no tab.
A Flak40 and a Flakzwilling 40 are not the same gun. that was the point of my suggestion.

A Flakzwilling 40 is a variant of the Flak40. A variant with 2 barrels instead of one. It's almost twice as big, and because it has two barrels firing, instead of one, it's also twice as deadly. Probably why it's given 2 attacks as well. Not trying to answer for anyone else, I know you didn't ask me.

Not trying to rub anyone the wrong way here, I was simply suggesting an alternate approach that also acts to make German AA a bit more balanced.

That being said, I support your idea, as I already said.

[Dahdee]

BTW, rate of fire of Flak40 was 20 rpm. Flakzwilling 40 was 40 rounds per minute.

[DreJaDe]

BTW, rate of fire of Flak40 was 20 rpm. Flakzwilling 40 was 40 rounds per minute.

Nope
Flak 40 was 10rpm
Flakswilling has 20 since it's double barrelled.

If you saw that in a simple search of Google, I noticed that it will indeed tell you that but reading the small text. It will tell you that flakswilling 40 is the one with 20 rpm.

Rechecking again, so many sources agreed with my statement 10-12 rpm with flakswilling having 16-20 rpm while one source that is from a "FANDOM" state that it has 40rpm.

A Flak40 and a Flakzwilling 40 are not the same gun. that was the point of my suggestion.

They were the same gun, just doubled.

[Dahdee]

BTW, rate of fire of Flak40 was 20 rpm. Flakzwilling 40 was 40 rounds per minute.

Nope
Flak 40 was 10rpm
Flakswilling has 20 since it's double barrelled.

You are correct. I am wrong, and I apologize.

[Dahdee]

I'm not really sure exactly what descriptive I should use? Obviously gun was not correct.

Maybe I should have said AA unit, IDK? I was incorrect about the ROF and I have owned up to my mistake, but I stand by my statement that a Flak 40 is not the same as a Flakzwilling 40. Just like an Me Bf109 E is not the same thing as an Me Bf109 K. They are different. The fact that it has two barrels and double the rate of fire of the other makes it a different thing.

That was what I was trying to point out.

[Dahdee]

As for your original idea, I've already said I think it's good.

This is a place for sharing ideas, and I was simply offering another idea, which no one is required to like. Was not my intention to aggravate anyone.

[TntAttack]

Just to clarify, I'm not talking about a new mega. I only propose giving the current mega the attack stats of the Flakzwilling ONLY in place of its current AA attack. Everything else about the mega would remain the same. I'm proposing we NOT make Flakzwilling on its own anymore. You would be basically making it when you make a mega. In its place we make Flak40 that should have half the damage as a it's double barreled brother, the Flakzwilling 40. And we implement what DreJaDe said about making that an occupiable building that you must defend or lose. That way you cannot populate the map with OP AA. Make the new Flak40 cost roughly the same as the current Flakzwilling 40, to keep it a sacrifice of manpower to build. If it still gets spammed because a player has an enormous pool of engineers, it's not so OP because it should be half the damage of the other, therefore not one shotting every single air unit.

Summary:

Mega buildings flak40 changes:
-Has current Flakzwilling attack and range

Q. What about every other mega building's attack and range? Should we increase the British mega to about the same range to make it fair? What about the other fractions.

Building Flakzwilling Changes:
-Occupiable
- Costs half of the mega building (?) //I reinterpreted it the other way around, otherwise you meant we make the mega buildings (flak40) cheaper like the spammable Flakzwilling.
- One shot

Sounds interesting, @DreJaDe e what do you think?

[Jasondunkel]

to keep it short

the 12.8 cm flak 40 has a barrel, it is the little sister of the
12.8 cm flak 40 twin. which, as the name suggests, has a double tube.

So they are definitely two different weapons.

Dahdee, I think your idea is very good to simply make the twin flak as armament for the German mega building. and to let the current twin Flak become the normal 12.8cm Flak 40.
which will then have values similar to those of normal anti-aircraft guns

[Jasondunkel]

I'm talking about flakwilling 40
Aka Flak40

Also, its really hard to understand you @Dahdee when you comment without in just one paragraph.

Also, although it's double barreled. It's has mostly the same rate of fire as British Flak and Flak 88. Don't really understand much of it's 2 turn attack besides flavor. I mean, ifs a big gun so obviously, it would fire slower.

Can I ask why it has 2 attacks again @Jasondunkel and @Stratego (dev)?.

I have no idea, I actually only increased the cost of the twin flak 40.

In general, you have ever expressed the wish to provide air defense weapons with more shots per minute with more action per turn.

I would like to provide all anti-aircraft weapons that fire less than 100 shots per minute with just one action, and everything above that with 2 actions per turn.

As mentioned elsewhere I would then want to give all AA different bonuses for different aircraft.

All anti-aircraft weapons that have a range of less than 8000 meters will then get a special bonus against fighter planes and fighter-bombers and everyone else will get better bonuses against all bomber planes

[Jasondunkel]

@TNT
I also would like to see some allied version of this special "buildings", so far the British have their naval artillery and that's it.

which building do you mean or imagine and can you take images of it?

[Jasondunkel]

@DreJaDe

Even if you don't see any sense in it, please still make an image for the 120 mm M1 anti-aircraft gun

[DreJaDe]

@DreJaDe

Even if you don't see any sense in it, please still make an image for the 120 mm M1 anti-aircraft gun

Didn't I make one already? I think, you even replied to it.

[Dahdee]

- Costs half of the mega building (?) //I reinterpreted it the other way around, otherwise you meant we make the mega buildings (flak40) cheaper like the spammable Flakzwilling.

Not necessarily. What I said was roughly. I didn't suggest a specific cost. I think that's best decided by @Stratego (dev) and @Jasondunkel, after anyone has a suggested specific cost to propose.

Seeing as they only made about 1100 of these since it's production started in 1942 (as opposed to like 20k of 88's and their variants), I do believe the flak40 should remain expensive to avoid spam. If you make it significantly cheaper than the current flakzwilling 40, players are going to make tons of them, occupiable or not. That would defeat the purpose of the current issue that DreJaDe has made this thread about.

Whatever is decided, this unit (or the flakzwilling 40, if this is not implemented) needs to be occupiable. I would also say any units of this nature that are introduced in the future for other nations should also be occupiable if they were mostly armament of static defensive structures, like the Flak 40 and Flakzwilling 40 were.

[Jasondunkel]

- Costs half of the mega building (?) //I reinterpreted it the other way around, otherwise you meant we make the mega buildings (flak40) cheaper like the spammable Flakzwilling.

Not necessarily. What I said was roughly. I didn't suggest a specific cost. I think that's best decided by @Stratego (dev) and @Jasondunkel, after anyone has a suggested specific cost to propose.

Seeing as they only made about 1100 of these since it's production started in 1942 (as opposed to like 20k of 88's and their variants), I do believe the flak40 should remain expensive to avoid spam. If you make it significantly cheaper than the current flakzwilling 40, players are going to make tons of them, occupiable or not. That would defeat the purpose of the current issue that DreJaDe has made this thread about.

Whatever is decided, this unit (or the flakzwilling 40, if this is not implemented) needs to be occupiable. I would also say any units of this nature that are introduced in the future for other nations should also be occupiable if they were mostly armament of static defensive structures, like the Flak 40 and Flakzwilling 40 were.

The normal 12.8 cm flak 40 will have significantly less hp. why the flakzwilling has so much hp is due to the fact that it was mounted on buildings. So this flak will be much easier to destroy. We can then leave the costs high, but a little lower than they are now. but it will take some time to finish

[Jasondunkel]

okay here another plan for the flakzwilling 40

it's also easier to handle.

the flak twin can only be built in the german mega building. with the costs that are now available.
if they are moved with a truck there should only be one moved. I have to ask stratego if that works