Phantom Guard - Undead Elite - Long post! - Archived

[Alexander82]

I agree but lately it is better to ask. Anyway i don't think the goblin grenade will be a great issue.

[Sunrise Samurai]

Remember that aoe damage kills corpses, cutting off the supply of reinforcements. It also inflicts burning, and is very effective against large crowds, which describes the preferred strategy of undead. I hadn't thought about it until recently, but it seems like the perfect anti undead weapon. We'll see how well it does in practice though.

[Alexander82]

I don't know. It is true that aoe is nice but goblins aren't always the best way to spend your turn. That might means giving up more giants (that already have aoe attacks) for goblins that will die after damaging both the enemy and friendly units. It might be effective to use a dying spearman to give a damaging final blow but not as much as heavy hitting. In short terms it is mostly a way to give a final attack to a unit you would already produce.

[Sunrise Samurai]

I'm hoping so. That's what it was designed for anyway.

[Alexander82]

Yeah. When comparing proposals I also try to figure how it will compare to existing options. In that case it is mostly a way to give some senses to goblins compared to stronger subraces of the orc army.

[Stratego (dev)]

Ok. I'll revise everything later. Is it ok to have them as a single vote or should I put them as separate units?

them? is here more ? sure - separate topics if there are more.

[Alexander82]

No only those in the topic. Is all together ok?

[Alexander82]

I'm trying to finalize stats:

Phantom Crusher

Cost:6
Hp:50
Attack:20
Armor:3/3
Action/turn:1
Range:2
Speed:3
Sight:4
Spell resist:100%
Bonuses:Infantry(100%)
Ability: trample

Phantom Axeman

Cost:6
Hp:70
Attack:15
Armor:3/6
Action/turn:1
Range:1
Speed:3
Sight:4
Spell resist:100%
Bonuses:Buildings(400%)
Abilities:Shield Bash(cooldown 3 turns, range 1,enemy is stunned/cursed for 2 turns)

Phantom Pikeman

Cost:6
Hp:40
Attack:15
Armor:3/6
Action/turn:1
Range:2
Speed:3
Sight:4
Spell resist:100%
Bonuses:Cavalry(300%)

Phantom Swordmaster

Cost:6
Hp:50
Attack:12
Armor:3/3
Action/turn:2
Range:1
Speed:3
Sight:4
Spell resist:70%
Bonuses:Buildings
Ability:Whirlwind in range 1 (like sword dancer) damage 10(100%)

Dullahan

Cost:0
Hp:75
Attack:24
Armor:5/10
Action/turn:1
Range:1
Speed:3
Sight:4
Spell resist:100%
Bonuses:Buildings(200%)
Active effects:Fear
Abilities:Throw Pumpkin(Fixed 999999 damage,spell range 3,cooldown 10,only flesh and blood units are targetable)

Phantom Garrison

Trains all Phantom Units and Researches Phantom Upgrades(Not Dullahan)
Turns to build:10
Hp:60
Armor:3/6

[Sunrise Samurai]

Looks great. I'd adjust the swordsman whirlwind down to 8 damage, and the power up to 15. This gives it a reason to use normal attacks on single targets, not just spam whirlwind even when there is only one enemy.

[Alexander82]

I thought that 2*12 was enough to use it instead of 2*10

Then attack 12 and whirlwind 8 might be ok or we might leave it at 10 but add a cooldown 1 so it can be used only once per turn.

[Typhoon]

Are we going to make more of them?

[Alexander82]

Before making more I'd make those one

[Typhoon]

Ok just asking

[Typhoon]

How about Phantom crossbowmen undeads kinda require strong ranged unit to deal with flying

[General Brave]

If someone make stats and images.

[makazuwr32]

They don't need if my suggestion on some balancing for undeads will be applied.

[LordOfAles]

They will be stronger than skeleton archers, miss or not. It's like comparing Imperial Crossbowman to Elite Archer. This is completely fine.

[makazuwr32]

i am not talking about skeleton archers.
I am talking about gargoyles. each gargoyle will do 25 damage to any flying unit.

[LordOfAles]

This one is ranged and will prove useful than a gargoyle. Besides they won't be used only against flying units...

[General Brave]

We can use the Phantom Crusher as template.

[makazuwr32]

i don't want to see great ranged unit for undeads.
Despite golden variant of regular archer of them will be even more powerful.

[LordOfAles]

Yes they will, and these crossbowmen fit perfectly into phantoms. Why are you against them? Little diversion in ranged units won't hurt anybody. Orcs are dominant in both swarm and melee superiorness. Undeads are only in swarm, so better ranged units won't hurt balance either.

[makazuwr32]

because undeads must be meat tanks with high p.armor and NOT a dead-eye archers.
And also good casters.

[LordOfAles]

Phantom crossbowman can have lower range than others and have better power. As for meat tanks, your argument is invalid. The only meat tanks are phantoms now, bone golems if they manage to make it to enemy, undead knights and flesh golems if you manage to make them.

[General Brave]

Also the undead have almost the best in cavalry, a bit of range wouldn't be bad, beside ain't these supposed to mirror the Imperials.

[makazuwr32]

still don't like idea of great archer-like unit for undeads.
there is such amount of suggested units for them beside these:
Dragon lich
Cultist of the Damned
Heretic
Possessed mage
Harbringer of death
Blight mage

[LordOfAles]

I still don't see your point in showing other units. The crossbowman fits perfectly and undeads won't be broken if we add him.

[makazuwr32]

Undead's weakness must be their low quality archers.

[LordOfAles]

Yes, indeed but let's point out some facts:

1st: This is an elite unit, expensive (very hard to spam), built from an expensive building (even harder to spam now).

2nd: If you compare undead ranged units with other races, you will see that they get pummeled at range. Yes i understand they must be worst but being bad to the point where even golden skeleton archers won't help is just sad.

3rd: Again, it will NOT unbalance undeads, just give more diversity and better strategies.

[makazuwr32]

Same was planned for Uruk Hai pack but look what they became now.
The most powerful 3 turn units. Especially archers.

Despite the fact that orcs must be weak as well at range.

So hold down your horses and let's balance current races (exept elves - they lack many things and without general drastical changes (making for example quick archer to have similar to basic Uruk archer's stats while having still 2 actions and 3 turns cost as for example of what i thought but that is extra if everything else will not work at all) or addition of new units this can't be fixed) as they are now.


As for undeads i want to add Skirmisher corpse and skirmisher skeleton if possible to basic skeletons.