A little addition for ent warriors - IMPLEMENTED

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makazuwr32
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A little addition for ent warriors - IMPLEMENTED

Post by makazuwr32 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:23 am

I'm suggesting that ent warriors could be affected by Treetop Archery tech (from both to get 2 passengers or from only second to get 1 passenger) and limit of passengers to 3 elven archer units (norma, quick, fire). They can shoot from "incide" of Ent warrior.
Summoned ents or Ent demolishers can't be affected by this.

This way they'll become far more useful because they could be used as cover for archers (like siege mantlets in aos) but with far more cost (you can't spam these guys), more health and they can also fight back.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by Midonik » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:26 am

That will be cool.
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:09 am

The Idea is nice even tough I don't know if we can set a unit to be entered only by certain unit types (i think yes but I need Daniel's word)

That would be great to bring fire archer on the battlefield with an additional defense from headhunters
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:12 pm

This......is just about the best idea I've heard lately. An ent warrior would become a mobile fortress, with plenty of reason to make them instead of sentinels despite the lower speed.

As far as limiting units inside, just stick to human sized units. If an elf wizard is hiding in an ent's branches, it's a good combination.

I see little reason not to allow 2 units inside after full research, as we really can't spam these. It's actually a bit risky to have a second unit inside, as only one could survive the ent dying.

Maybe a bit less useful than ent warriors, but extending this to ent demolishers could make them a bit more useful than they currently are.
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:29 pm

My toughts:

1) at the moment the ent has speed 2 and we have a tech to increase ents speed. I think that such a change would make less need for the one related to movement (I think that 3 speed for a moving tower is too much)

2) I think that 2 slots is ok if we don't allow fire archers in. Fire archers are extremely good against buildings and against trolls. I think that a single archer in a ent should be ok because it would basically make this ent a ranged unit with a high range and a lot of hp and armor. Archers are good for their range but easy to kill unless they stay inside a tower (that until now was going to remain in place). The archer in a ent trick is good enough with a single archer inside, especially if you speak of special archers and/or double archers (4 ranged attack + 1 melee attack, high hp and armor).
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by General Brave » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:44 pm

I might agree to this.
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:46 pm

1. We might cancel increasing their speed in favor of this. You're right that this would reduce the need for increased speed anyway.

2. I'd say it makes sense to exclude fire archers in favor of allowing 2 units inside. Ents probably would never agree to someone waving around burning arrows in their branches anyway.
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:35 pm

Also that shouldn't apply to summoned ents (I don't even know how they would behave vanishing with units inside)
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:17 pm

Yeah. I'd guess vanishing would still apply, killing the ent at the end of vanishing. Anything inside would likely follow normal rules per transport unit death, meaning only one would survive. But, that's a bit beside the point. Summoned ents having capacity would produce some interesting, complicated results. It's one thing for an elf wizard to hide in an ent warrior. It's quite another for him to hide in his own summoned ents, creating another as soon as the first dies to continue hiding in a wall that refreshes every other turn as well as using them for a massive speed boost.

While it sounds like fun, I don't think we need the mind games attached to any summoned units with carrying capacity.
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:15 pm

No, and we definitely need to make the real ent stand over the summoned one
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:26 pm

So, I guess the final summary is that ent warriors​ and ent demolishers can receive up to 2 capacity from treetop archery, but anything fire based, including fire archers, is subject to a specific exclusion. Seems pretty simple, and effective. Is it ready to put in?
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:18 pm

The unit that ahould be affected is the ent warrior.
I don't know about the demolisher since I suppose is smaller but it might be ok.

It should just take in elf archer and fast archer
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:00 am

Yeah, demolisher's lower health makes it alright to hold units in without being unbalanced. Besides, I think it might help justify making one or two of them for a ranged mobile tower.

Not sure why not to allow more than the two archers though. Let's at least allow elf druid to provide some kind of healer the benefit. I must say I can definitely understand why sentinels would be excluded too, as their attack power added to the ent would be formidable.
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by Alexander82 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:01 am

We might simply add foot low cost units

It has coherence even from a realistica point of view.

Since it is not a cart but basically a moving tree you need somean that is agile and light enough to climb a tree and fighting from its branches (and with no fire or bulky equipments like very long bows or shields)

We might allow Elf archer, double archer, warrior, swordsman, druid and sworddancer

Do you agree?

They can also use the ent as a place where to hide and heal with lembas
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by Midonik » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:08 am

Sounds good.
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:52 am

also as i know we can somehow disable units with carry capacity from entering another units with carry capacity and if elf wagons would become buildable Ent warriors will be excluded from them.

P.S.
Also i didn't think that this idea will find such resonance. But i'm glad that it find.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:21 am

That looks like the list I'm looking for. I'd like to see elf wizard, but I don't think it's going to happen. Druid is the big sell I was looking for, as I'm tired of my druids getting shot. I think it's ready.

We might also try to apply similar improvements to other units. For example, low cost foot units could be allowed to ride pillion on human cavalry. This would require a tech and disallow attacking, but it would​ be an alternative that could be more flexible than wagons.
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by Alexander82 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:29 pm

Meybe but I'd prefer some downside there. For example a riding unit with an extra passenger would get -1 speed.

Let's stick with ents in the meanwhile
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:13 pm

So can we make it finalized?

1. Making Treetop archery tech affecting of ent Warriors and Ent Demolishers to get up to 2 capacity.

2. Unit list who can get inside:
Alexander82 wrote:Elf archer, double archer, warrior, swordsman, druid and sworddancer

3. Ents as units with carry capacity can't get inside wagons (can we make them counit for wagons as wagons? they can get still into ships.)


Also one additional question:
Can we lower by 1 or even 2 turns cost of ent demolishers?
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:18 pm

I think demolishers need their own examination after this gets implemented. This will go a long way towards making them usable, and I've got a couple ideas to make them more interesting I'll post later if they still need help after this. Lowering cost isn't what they need so much as something to make them better than fire archers depending on circumstances.
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:46 pm

I already have some ideas for them
viewtopic.php?f=115&t=4919#p57795
makazuwr32 wrote: About Demolishers
They i think need similar thing - higher damage and stun chance. also they need to be cheaper. At most 6 turns even if they'll have 30 damage. because they have near to no mobility (without elven wagons), poor health for 6-7 turn thrower and even more miss chance.
Compare that to human's catapults (higher damage, higher mobility because of wagons, higher range, faster to buid because of workers despite they are 8 turn units and great area damage)
Maybe make Ent demolishers like weaker catapults (lower damage, range) trainable only in tc's and ent trainers but with lower cost?

Personally i think that these stats will make them far more useful:
Hp - 30 (+9) (a bit increase - they are ents still! and they can't use wagons for now)
Damage - 21 (+9)
Power range - 1 OR Passive: 40% on hit stun unit for 2 turns (-5 actions/turn, lower speed by 3 tiles)
Range - 6
Armor/P.Armor - 0/8 (+1 p.armor because some ridicilously powerful shooters can damage them without burning really easy from safe distance. Uruk archers and imperial crossbowmen for example, but removed their normal armor)
Speed 2
Sight 8
Cost 6 turns

Or

Hp - 21 (same)
Damage - 17 (+5)
Power range - 1 OR Passive: 40% on hit stun unit for 2 turns (-5 actions/turn, lower speed by 3 tiles)
Range - 6
Armor/P.armor - 0/7 (just remove normal armor)
Speed 2
Sight 8
Cost 5 turns
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:09 pm

I was thinking more along Alexander's original idea here
viewtopic.php?f=125&t=4268
If demolishers were invisible in forest tiles and could be used to hide troops, it would be fun.
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:43 am

Please stop going ot. This topic is for the ent warrior.
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:53 am

So can we implement this?
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:53 am

makazuwr32 wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:13 pm
1. Making Treetop archery tech affecting of ent Warriors and Ent Demolishers to get up to 2 capacity.

2. Unit list who can get inside:
Alexander82 wrote:Elf archer, double archer, warrior, swordsman, druid and sworddancer
3. Ents as units with carry capacity can't get inside wagons (can we make them counit for wagons as wagons? they can get still into ships.)
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by LordOfAles » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:54 am

If so make it that turtleman can't get in wagons either.
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:44 pm

Is that doable Daniel? If so we can add it to vote
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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by General Brave » Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:46 pm

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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:32 pm

Alexander82 wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:44 pm
Is that doable Daniel? If so we can add it to vote
if the question is to make ent warrior carry capacity by a tech, than yes: we can do it without coding, and yes it is accepted idea from me!

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Re: A little addition for ent warriors

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:20 am

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:32 pm
Alexander82 wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:44 pm
Is that doable Daniel? If so we can add it to vote
if the question is to make ent warrior carry capacity by a tech, than yes: we can do it without coding, and yes it is accepted idea from me!
Is it possible to make only some units access the ent warrior
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