Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

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Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by Stratego (dev) » Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:32 pm

Patroid: Here i suggest discussing the unit hp and power and movement groups units will have, after stating this you can go in detail with specific units or diversions from the standards.

with groups and approx property ranges, i mean:
- transportships (100-200 HP, 10-20 power, 4-5 movement, 2-4 turn cost)
- war ships (500-2000 hp, 40-60 power, 3-4 movement, 7-9 turn cost)
- troops (15-20 HP, 5-10 power, 2-4 movement 2-3 turn cost)
- light vehcles (50-100 hp, 15-25 power, 4-6 movement, 3-4 turn cost)
- heavy vehicles (300-500 hp, 40-60 power, 3-4 movement, 5-7 turn cost)
- artillery...
- anti artillery
- air transport ...
- air fighters ...
- air bombers ...
- anti aircraft...

these are only random examples to values
i just suggest making this top-level design first, and go into detailed stats with specific units after you have a fairly good top level approach.
(of course there can be specific units that are out of the standarsds/groups)


having this you will see approx how many ground troop will destroy a ship, and decide whether it is ok or not.
one thing i suggest: do not use many 1 turn cost units (minimize them), and do not define 10 or more turn cost units that is too much to wait for (or only a very few if necessary).



----------------------------

Also a few sources for helping the balancing:
http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php ... diffrence/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/236390/d ... 099298570/

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Re: Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by patroid » Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:44 pm

I yust posted this basic stats in the different topics.

But this make the ships sooo op that vehicels
Cannot beat them--> a river thats controlled by
The enemy make him to winner...

Patroid

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Re: Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by patroid » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:00 pm

Hi
Guys what do you think about daniels suggestion.

Sounds mostly good to me(maybe make artillery against
Ships or a structure like anti-ship cannon) than its perfect.

Also i think medium vehicels hp:150-250 power 20-50 cost 3-5.

Patroid

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Re: Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by Stratego (dev) » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:44 pm

no, no these numbers were only random numbers as a smple, you can lower the ships or change anything, i just suggested to see the basic property ranges in one forum topic not in 6-8 separate one (so we can easily compare them)

The best is having only one post with the decided(or under discussion) basic ranges/values like i did with the sample.

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Re: Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by COOLguy » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:47 pm

I understand, Daniel.

As far as Navies, few ground units can destroy surface fleets, except maybe shore based artillery. Fleet actions must have air coverage though, or it is doomed to failure. And ships regularly were used to bombard the coast.
Thanks!
Josh

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Re: Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by COOLguy » Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:49 am

Here is my quick ideas for the basic stats of Destroyers and Battleships. Please tell me if you think they are balanced and whatnot. :)

Destoyer

range: 4-5
hp: about 30
power: 7-13 depending on model
sight: near 3-4
movement: maybe 4-6

bonus on pts, transports, subs, destroyers.
Some have a small bonus against air.

Battleships

range: 6-7
hp: 45-60
power: 15-20
sight: 4-5
movement: like 2-3

bonuses on practically all ships, and most land units
aircraft have a bonus against these
Thanks!
Josh

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Re: Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by dust-n-steel » Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:17 am

Maybe 6/7 is a little bit high Form the battleship range?
What color is your flag when it's burning?!

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Re: Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by COOLguy » Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:47 pm

maybe. i thought it would be about as long as some artillery. maybe they have the same range as cruisers but more powerful. range 4-6?
Thanks!
Josh

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Re: Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by COOLguy » Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:05 pm

Here are some more navy stats. Tell me what you think, please. :)

Carrier

range: 1-3
hp: 50-70
power: close to 7
sight: 2-3
movement: maybe 2-3

has special ability to garrison aircraft (and 'heal' them when in garrison) maybe 6 is ideal? (2 bombers 2 dive 2 fighter) maybe 4-8

Cruiser

range: 4-6
hp: 40
power: 10-16
sight: 3-4
movement: 3-5

smaller bonus on most ships than battleship, but none for sub
vunerable to air

Submarine

range: 3-4
hp: 15-20
power: 3-5
sight: 3-4
movement: 3-5

has a HUGE bonus against surface vessels
vulnerable to destroyer and air
special ability to submerge. can not be seen until right next to it. can move. can it attack too?

PT

range: 2-3
hp: 15-20
power: 5-10
sight: 2-3
movement: 5-6

has bonus against small craft (like destroyers)
against transports
small bonus for air

Transport

Low hp, small move. vulnerable to attack. can carry different numbers of troops

Some cool ideas that might be fun

Tender - they can 'heal' other ships

Minesweeper - can make 'mine' structure... and remove it too :)

Merchant Marine - kind of a cool concept. I'm not sure what they would do
Thanks!
Josh

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Re: Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by Stratego (dev) » Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:27 am

Patroid: hi! do you work on the helicopter view of properties?

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Re: Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by COOLguy » Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:22 pm

FYI: I have been balancing Navies to the tentative Infantry stats. I have been busy sorry, but I then I will finish w/ images and nation stat differences.
Thanks!
Josh

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Re: Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by patroid » Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:52 pm

Hi
Sorry but as i wrote i havent much time,
But now i can work on.

Patroid

Ness

unit balances infantry

Post by Ness » Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:04 pm

Rifleman: cost 2, power4-8, range 5-6, hp 15-25
Good vs infantry, weak vs vehiclres
Smg troop: cost 2, power 2-4, 3 shoots per turn, range 3-4 hp 15-25
Good vs Infantry, weak vs vehicles
Machine gun: cost 3, power 4-8, 3 shoots per turn, range 5-6, hp 15-25
Excellent vs Infantry, weak vs vehicles
Sniper: cost 3, power 12-20, range 7-8, hp 8-12
Excellent vs Infantry, weak vs vehicles
Flamethrower: Cost 3, power 3-6, range 2-3, hp 15-25
Good clean trenches, bunkers and mg positions
AT-troop: cost 2, power 2-5, range 4, hp 15-25
Good vs vehicles, weak vs infantry

Every troops speed is 3 but mg's speed is 2

Ness

Re: Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by Ness » Wed May 27, 2015 6:22 pm

Rifleman
Cost 2, hp 11, power 5, range 2, armour 0/0, speed 3

Smg
Cost 2, hp 11, power 7, range 1, armour 0/0, speed 3

Sniper
Cost 3, hp 7, power 6 (bonus 100% to infantry), range 4, armour 0/0, speed 3

Mg
Cost 3, hp 11, power 8, range 2, armour 0/0, speed 2

Flamethrower
Cost 3, hp 11, power 6 (can damage units in defenses) , range 1, armour 0/0, speed 3

Mortar
Cost 3, hp 7, power 10 (area damage), range 5, speed 2

AT-trooper, AT-rifle
Cost 2, hp 11, power 3 (400% bonus vs vehicles), range 2, speed 3

AT-trooper, bazooka
Cost 2, hp 11, power 3 (700% bonus vs vehicles), range 1, speed 3

Special troop (like commando)
Cost 4, hp 22, power 10, range 2, speed 3

Ness

Re: Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by Ness » Wed May 27, 2015 6:36 pm

Artillery
Cost 6, hp 10, power 15 (area damage), range 6, speed 1

Heavy artillery
Cost 8, hp 15, power 20 (area damage), range 7, speed 1

Self propeled artillery
Cost 8, hp 30, power 15 (area damage), range 6, speed 5

Rocket launcher
Cost 9, hp 15, power 25 (area damage), range 8, speed 1 (lower accuracy than artillery guns)

AT-gun
Cost 4, hp 15, power 4 (600% bonuses vs vehicles), range 3, speed 1

Heavy AT-gun
Cost 6, hp 20, power 5 (600% bonuses vs vehicles), range 4, speed 1

Tank destroyer
Cost 6, hp 40, power 4 (600% bonuses vs vehicles), range 3, speed 5

Heavy tank destroyer
Cost 8, hp 50, power 5 (600% bonuses vs vehicles), range 4, speed 4

Light AA-gun
Cost 4, hp 15, power 8, range 3, speed 1

Heavy AA-gun
Cost 6, hp 20, power 5 (200% bonus vs planes and 300% bonuses vs vehicles), range 4, speed 1

AA-tank
Cost 6, hp 30, power 8, range 3, speed 5

Ness

Re: Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by Ness » Wed May 27, 2015 6:44 pm

Armoured car
Cost 4, hp 20, power 10 (100% bonuses vs infantry), range 2, speed 6

Light tank
Cost 4, hp 35, power 10 (100% bonuses vs vehicles), range 3, speed 6

Medium tank
Cost 6, hp 45, power 10 (200% bonuses vs vehicles), range 3, speed 5

Heavy tank
Cost 8, hp 61, power 15 (150% bonuses vs vehicles), range 4, speed 4

Jeep
Cost 2, hp 15, power 0, range 0, speed 6, can carry 1 infantry unit

Truck/half track
Cost 4, hp 20, power 0, range 0, speed 5, can carry 1 artillery unit or 3 infantry units

Ness

Re: Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by Ness » Wed May 27, 2015 6:50 pm

Fighter
Cost 3, hp 11, power 5 (100% bonuses vs planes), range 2, speed 8

Heavy fighter
Cost 4, hp 17, power 8 (100% bonuses vs bombers ), range 3, speed 7

Light bomber
Cost 4, hp 17, power 10 (100% bonuses vs vehicles, 200% bonus vs destroyer and cruiser, 300% bonus vs battleship), range 1, speed 7

Torpedo bomber
Cost 4, hp 17, power 35 (50% bonus vs cruiser, 100% bonus vs battleship and carrier), range 1, speed 7

Heavy bomber
Cost 6, hp 25, power 15, range 2, speed 6

Transport plane
Cost 6, hp 25, power 0, range 0, speed 6, can carry 1 artillery unit, 1 light vehicle (jeep, armoured car, truck), or 3 infantry units
Last edited by Ness on Thu May 28, 2015 4:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ness

Re: Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by Ness » Wed May 27, 2015 6:52 pm

Destroyer
Cost 8, hp 100, speed 6, 3 attack types: guns, power 20, range 6; AA-guns, power 8, range 2; shock charge, power 20, range 1

Torpedo boat
Cost 8, hp 100, speed 6, 3 attack types: guns, power 15, range 6; AA-guns, power 8, range 2; torpedo, power 35 (50% bonus vs cruiser, 100% bonus vs battleship and carrier), range 2

Cruiser
Cost 10, hp 150, speed 5, 2 attack types: guns, power 30, range 7; AA-guns, power 11, range 3

Battleship
Cost 12, hp 200, speed 4, 2 attack types: guns, power 40, range 8; AA-guns, power 11, range 3

Submarine
Cost 6, hp 40, power 35 (50% bonus vs cruiser, 100% bonus vs battleship and carrier), range, 2, speed 5

Landing craft
Cost 4, hp 40, power 0, range 0, speed 5

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Re: Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by COOLguy » Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:52 pm

That is a very impressive stat list. :) However, I had already posted some tentative stats for most of the navies previously. I'll re-post these below. I had not yet completed the customized stats for the individual unit/classes, and when I do I will keep your new stat list in mind. But if you would please, make sure to read the whole topic through, before posting new comprehensive lists.
COOLguy wrote:Here is my quick ideas for the basic stats of Destroyers and Battleships. Please tell me if you think they are balanced and whatnot. :)

Destoyer

range: 4-5
hp: about 30
power: 7-13 depending on model
sight: near 3-4
movement: maybe 4-6

bonus on pts, transports, subs, destroyers.
Some have a small bonus against air.

Battleships

range: 4-6
hp: 45-60
power: 15-20
sight: 4-5
movement: like 2-3

bonuses on practically all ships, and most land units
aircraft have a bonus against these
COOLguy wrote:Here are some more navy stats. Tell me what you think, please. :)

Carrier

range: 1-3
hp: 50-70
power: close to 7
sight: 2-3
movement: maybe 2-3

has special ability to garrison aircraft (and 'heal' them when in garrison) maybe 6 is ideal? (2 bombers 2 dive 2 fighter) maybe 4-8

Cruiser

range: 4-6
hp: 40
power: 10-16
sight: 3-4
movement: 3-5

smaller bonus on most ships than battleship, but none for sub
vunerable to air

Submarine

range: 3-4
hp: 15-20
power: 3-5
sight: 3-4
movement: 3-5

has a HUGE bonus against surface vessels
vulnerable to destroyer and air
special ability to submerge. can not be seen until right next to it. can move. can it attack too?

PT

range: 2-3
hp: 15-20
power: 5-10
sight: 2-3
movement: 5-6

has bonus against small craft (like destroyers)
against transports
small bonus for air

Transport

Low hp, small move. vulnerable to attack. can carry different numbers of troops

Some cool ideas that might be fun

Tender - they can 'heal' other ships

Minesweeper - can make 'mine' structure... and remove it too :)

Merchant Marine - kind of a cool concept. I'm not sure what they would do
Thanks!
Josh

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Re: Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by COOLguy » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:47 am

Sorry guys, I think we got distracted from what Daniel intended here. We got too focused on the small details. We need to hold back on the individualized stats and just look at the big picture. :) So I will continue to edit this post, and you guys can help to suggest if the large groups are balanced to each other.

So keep in mind that these are not final stats for any particular units. We just want to see how the different groups work with each other (ie about how many tanks it takes to kill a ship).

-infantry - hp 15-22; power 5-10; movement 2-4; cost 2-4; range 1-2 (use: grunt troops, weak against mech except for a few that are specialized, easiest to transport esp over rough terrain)
-tanks - hp 35-90; power 17-45; movement 3-5; cost 5-8; range 2-4 (use: tough, makes up majority of many armies, break up infantry formations, good against other ground based mech)
-destroyers- hp 120-190; power 17-45; movement 3-5; cost 5-7; range 2-4 (use: makes up most surface fleets, rare coast bombardment, useful for screens for more important ships)
-cruisers- hp 175-275; power 25-55; movement 3-5; cost 5-7; range 3-5 (use: a tougher ship than destroyer; makes up part of the body of fleet or leader of attachment; ranges from destroyer size to battleship size)

So far it looks like two tanks should be able to handle most normal infantry. Only specialized anti-tank infantry should be able to harm tanks. A destroyer should be able to handle any small tanks or infantry that get too close to the water. And depending on armor it should be hard for most tanks to take down a destroyer.

Okay that's all for now. :) If you feel like commenting please do. I will edit in more later. Remember this is only a vague overview - nothing specific yet. If anything looks weird, I was probably just tired or something. :P
Thanks!
Josh

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Re: Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:49 pm

looks good!
here i try to continue on the same track:

-infantry - hp 15-22; power 5-10; movement 2-4; cost 2-4; range 1-2 (use: grunt troops, weak against mech except for a few that are specialized, easiest to transport esp over rough terrain)
-tanks - hp 35-90; power 17-45; movement 3-5; cost 5-8; range 2-4 (use: tough, makes up majority of many armies, break up infantry formations, good against other ground based mech)
-destroyers- hp 120-190; power 17-45; movement 3-5; cost 5-7; range 2-4 (use: makes up most surface fleets, rare coast bombardment, useful for screens for more important ships)
-cruisers- hp 175-275; power 25-55; movement 3-5; cost 5-7; range 3-5 (use: a tougher ship than destroyer; makes up part of the body of fleet or leader of attachment; ranges from destroyer size to battleship size)

-Artillery- hp 25-40; power 20; movement 1 (or 0 unpacked 4 packed if packable); cost: 4-7; range: 5-9 (high bonus against ships, tanks(?), buildings, but weak in structure and slow if not transported)
-plane fighter- hp 25-30; power 10-15; movement: 6-8; cost: 4-8; range 1-2 (flying, so ground units can only damage it by 1hp, except if any has bonus, attack type is "arrow" what means it can attack air units, and hits "Pierce" armor)
-plane bomber- hp 25-30; power 20; movement: 5-6; cost: 6-8; range 1 (flying, so ground units can only damage it by 1hp, except if any has bonus, attack type is "normal" what means it can not attack air units, and hits "normal" armor, has bonus against buildings and other slow movement units)
- anti-air: hp 20-40; power 4; movement 1 (or 0 unpacked 4 packed if packable); cost: 4-7; range: 5-6 (high bonus against air units + 400-500%, but weak in structure and slow if not transported, has damage type "arrow" able to shoot flying units)


We need to define
a) the 2 type of armors that can be handled (like in AOS the armor/pierce armor, we should define 2 types of armors here, maybe normal, Heavy?)
b) the 2 type of attacks arrow/normal meaning hitting "pierce" or "normal" armor and being able to shoot flyers.

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Re: Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by COOLguy » Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:03 am

Looks good!

I was thinking for the armors, to have "explosive" and normal.
Thanks!
Josh

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Re: Unit balances in top level "helicopter" view

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:46 pm

added few sources to top post:

Also a few sources for helping the balancing:
http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php ... diffrence/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/236390/d ... 099298570/

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